Dissonance, structure, and a personal reinvention: symptom of life (Willow)
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8txXdr4kkqQ
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/70nmpLYSyZ58QTUzUiB1VA?si=9f0f8e7f007c4f6c
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/symptom-of-life/1737442321
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B0CYTK33WX?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_yfvgQ0eYvSPgxaqRb9eqS7AIe&trackAsin=B0CYTKXWL6
Key takeaways
- Trist and Elaine review Willow’s 2024 single, “symptom of life,” describing it as "delightfully chaotic" yet surprisingly structured. They explore its use of changing meter, rhythmic complexity, and contrasting vocal textures, including untreated main vocals and lush, stacked harmonies
- Elaine and Trist highlight the poetic depth of the song's lyrics, which explore themes like transcendence, transformation, healing, the fragility of life, and the tension between mundane and transcendent experiences
- In the Mailbag segment, Trist and Elaine discuss the importance of singers viewing themselves as musicians and learning to speak the language of music. They discuss how understanding musical concepts, such as sight-reading and harmony, can open doors to more opportunities in the music industry
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Hey, Elaine, this week we have
Speaker:Trist: something that's not old like
Speaker:Trist: me.
Speaker:Trist: I know all of our songs have
Speaker:Trist: reached into the past somewhat,
Speaker:Trist: but this is the newest track
Speaker:Trist: that we've done here on The
Speaker:Trist: Musician's Loupe.
Speaker:Trist: This is from the musician Willow.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Trist: Willow.
Speaker:Trist: And the song is "symptom of life."
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: I think I might remember this one from a recent recommendation
Speaker:Elaine: that you had for me.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we get into it, can
Speaker:Elaine: you remind us how we're
Speaker:Elaine: listening to music on The
Speaker:Elaine: Musician's Loupe?
Speaker:Trist: On The Musician's Loupe, we are absolutely thrilled that you
Speaker:Trist: would take the time to join us talking about music.
Speaker:Trist: However, we also would like to
Speaker:Trist: invite you to listen in the best
Speaker:Trist: way possible.
Speaker:Trist: So if you do have the ability to
Speaker:Trist: upgrade your listening, put on
Speaker:Trist: the good headphones, Please take
Speaker:Trist: a moment to do that before you
Speaker:Trist: listen.
Speaker:Trist: We like to encourage the better
Speaker:Trist: listening in your life when you
Speaker:Trist: can.
Speaker:Trist: Again, not always able to do it, you're out on a run, great, just
Speaker:Trist: glad to have you.
Speaker:Trist: But if you can improve it, do so.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: So we are going to go ahead and
Speaker:Elaine: leave the links to the song in
Speaker:Elaine: the show notes, and we'll be
Speaker:Elaine: right back.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. Holy cows.
Speaker:Elaine: Where do we start with this one?
Speaker:Elaine: There was so much in this one to talk about.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, it's a lot, but also super digestible at the same time.
Speaker:Elaine: I remember this being a part of a full album listen for me
Speaker:Elaine: because you recommended the entire album to me.
Speaker:Elaine: And I remember thinking it was
Speaker:Elaine: delightfully chaotic, and I will
Speaker:Elaine: say that this is kind of my
Speaker:Elaine: impression of this particular
Speaker:Elaine: song as well is delightfully
Speaker:Elaine: chaotic.
Speaker:Elaine: But as I got into it, I found that it had a lot more structure
Speaker:Elaine: than I thought it had.
Speaker:Trist: Right. Yeah. The different mix
Speaker:Trist: and changing meter and stuff and
Speaker:Trist: some of the disparate sounds
Speaker:Trist: here and there gives it that
Speaker:Trist: impression.
Speaker:Trist: But then when you've heard a section, the third time and you
Speaker:Trist: realize, oh, that seemed super chaotic, but it all happened
Speaker:Trist: that same chaotic way this third and fourth time as well.
Speaker:Trist: So then your brain picks up on
Speaker:Trist: that and gives more structure to
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. So can you tell us a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit about why you
Speaker:Elaine: selected the song for us to
Speaker:Elaine: listen to?
Speaker:Trist: Well, like I alluded in the intro, I realized I was again
Speaker:Trist: pulling from many years back quite often, which there's so
Speaker:Trist: much great music in the world.
Speaker:Trist: I'm usually digging back and
Speaker:Trist: then I realized I wanted
Speaker:Trist: something that was at least a
Speaker:Trist: little newer.
Speaker:Trist: It's not brand new, but, I
Speaker:Trist: believe this song came out like
Speaker:Trist: 2024.
Speaker:Trist: So we're getting closer.
Speaker:Trist: So that was really one of the main things I was thinking, I
Speaker:Trist: need to keep my ear out for something newer and heard this
Speaker:Trist: within a short amount of time of thinking of that.
Speaker:Trist: I said, ah, this is great.
Speaker:Trist: Because it also hits some of the same things that we've talked
Speaker:Trist: about before in terms of like, meter and texture and recording
Speaker:Trist: and overdubbing and use of, quote unquote jazz harmonies,
Speaker:Trist: more extended harmony.
Speaker:Trist: So it has a lot of the qualities
Speaker:Trist: in some songs that I've chosen
Speaker:Trist: that aren't just a few years
Speaker:Trist: old.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think what really impressed me about this was the
Speaker:Elaine: level of maturity that I heard from a musical perspective.
Speaker:Elaine: And just digging into a little
Speaker:Elaine: bit of the background of Willow
Speaker:Elaine: herself.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that she's relatively young and yet this is her
Speaker:Elaine: seventh studio album.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: I was
Speaker:Trist: She's
Speaker:Elaine: like,
Speaker:Trist: like twenty
Speaker:Elaine: whoa.
Speaker:Trist: five, I think.
Speaker:Elaine: Exactly.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: That's,
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: that's incredibly prolific for such a young artist.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I was really impressed by this particular track and also
Speaker:Elaine: just the entire album.
Speaker:Trist: Obviously, the upbringing is super important, knowing that
Speaker:Trist: she's the daughter of Will Smith and Jada Pinkett Smith, being in
Speaker:Trist: an artistic Hollywood family.
Speaker:Trist: and so you have a lot of opportunities, You don't need to
Speaker:Trist: hunker down and focus on.
Speaker:Trist: "Yeah, music's great, but what are you really going to do for
Speaker:Trist: your job?" Not that her childhood situation doesn't come
Speaker:Trist: with its own set of stuff.
Speaker:Trist: I'm just saying, relating to your comment of, wow, this is
Speaker:Trist: the seventh album when she's, 23, 24 years old.
Speaker:Trist: that's pretty awesome.
Speaker:Trist: But seemingly having all of that support and such artistry in her
Speaker:Trist: family can't be dismissed.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I do want to, talk a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit about that flip side,
Speaker:Elaine: because on the one hand, she has
Speaker:Elaine: a lot of freedom because of her
Speaker:Elaine: family's history.
Speaker:Elaine: On the other hand, I feel like
Speaker:Elaine: it's really paired with true
Speaker:Elaine: talent, right?
Speaker:Elaine: And I think it's
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: one thing to say like, hey, you have all this opportunity, but
Speaker:Elaine: you have a mediocre talent.
Speaker:Elaine: And another thing entirely, when
Speaker:Elaine: you have all this family support
Speaker:Elaine: and yet you have this amazing
Speaker:Elaine: voice and some interesting
Speaker:Elaine: things that she does with her
Speaker:Elaine: voice and the way that she
Speaker:Elaine: overdubs herself.
Speaker:Elaine: I just felt like she was able to realize that talent in a way
Speaker:Elaine: that I think a lot of people don't get a chance to do.
Speaker:Elaine: So I think to your place, it's both talent and opportunity, to
Speaker:Elaine: be able to make music like this.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: And of course, it's kind of nice to have the, openness and the
Speaker:Trist: freedom and the support.
Speaker:Trist: And then yet also do what you
Speaker:Trist: can to separate yourself and try
Speaker:Trist: to feel like, oh, I'm not
Speaker:Trist: getting this just because of who
Speaker:Trist: I am.
Speaker:Trist: not using her last name very frequently.
Speaker:Trist: You always hear her just called Willow.
Speaker:Trist: So you want to separate from that.
Speaker:Trist: And obviously the music, she turns out, isn't like anything
Speaker:Trist: that either of her parents really do directly.
Speaker:Trist: Even though they're artistic and
Speaker:Trist: musical, it's not music like
Speaker:Trist: this.
Speaker:Trist: So she's definitely on her own path.
Speaker:Trist: has kind of some ways the best of both.
Speaker:Trist: Like, well, I'm not here just because of that, but I'll take
Speaker:Trist: whatever advantages that there were at the same time.
Speaker:Elaine: It's interesting to think about
Speaker:Elaine: also influence and about the
Speaker:Elaine: influence of hip hop in
Speaker:Elaine: particular, because that was
Speaker:Elaine: something that I did hear,
Speaker:Elaine: despite the fact that this is
Speaker:Elaine: more of a I don't know how you
Speaker:Elaine: would classify
Speaker:Trist: Kind
Speaker:Elaine: it, whether
Speaker:Trist: of a
Speaker:Elaine: it's
Speaker:Trist: math
Speaker:Elaine: like a
Speaker:Trist: rock
Speaker:Elaine: nouveau.
Speaker:Trist: song.
Speaker:Elaine: It's a bit of like, you know, a
Speaker:Elaine: nouveau, like, I don't know what
Speaker:Elaine: kind of jazz you would call it,
Speaker:Elaine: but, one of the things that I
Speaker:Elaine: was thinking about is the
Speaker:Elaine: influence of hip hop in her
Speaker:Elaine: lyricism and specifically in the
Speaker:Elaine: rhythms.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: So one
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: thing that I noticed was that
Speaker:Elaine: there was a big part of what
Speaker:Elaine: she's saying, especially during
Speaker:Elaine: the verses that was monotone,
Speaker:Elaine: right?
Speaker:Elaine: Like she was singing one note very
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: rhythmically, and the lyrics
Speaker:Elaine: were really holding a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: that rhythm.
Speaker:Elaine: And the lyrics were very well
Speaker:Elaine: written for that rhythm to kind
Speaker:Elaine: of punctuate a lot of what was
Speaker:Elaine: happening rhythmically.
Speaker:Elaine: And so for that, I really pointed towards hip hop.
Speaker:Elaine: I was like, that is a definite hip hop influence.
Speaker:Elaine: And I felt like it was a very
Speaker:Elaine: strong influence and a strength
Speaker:Elaine: throughout the entire thing,
Speaker:Elaine: because the entire piece is
Speaker:Elaine: about rhythm.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, those choruses really, definitely are just kind of that
Speaker:Trist: one note thing.
Speaker:Trist: That's interesting.
Speaker:Trist: I hadn't thought about that.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that there's another piece of there that is
Speaker:Elaine: distinctly her own.
Speaker:Elaine: Thinking about the ways that it
Speaker:Elaine: goes from a more dissonance into
Speaker:Elaine: a more, I'd say, traditional
Speaker:Elaine: chord from the very beginning on
Speaker:Elaine: the piano.
Speaker:Elaine: But all throughout there is this sense of, oh, I have all of
Speaker:Elaine: these different dissonant things that kind of resolve into a
Speaker:Elaine: really satisfying chord or a very satisfying unison.
Speaker:Elaine: And she uses both of those
Speaker:Elaine: things repeatedly throughout the
Speaker:Elaine: song.
Speaker:Trist: Now that you mentioned that, it
Speaker:Trist: actually is a really nice
Speaker:Trist: contrast, that rhythmic keeping
Speaker:Trist: closer to just one note ish
Speaker:Trist: through all the kind of chorus y
Speaker:Trist: spots, I guess we call the
Speaker:Trist: chorus and the melodies in those
Speaker:Trist: verses are a little more
Speaker:Trist: angular.
Speaker:Trist: That's kind of a cool contrast.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you talk a little bit about the vocals on this?
Speaker:Elaine: I heard a lot in there, but I'd love to get your take on it.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, man.
Speaker:Trist: It's just so real and raw and
Speaker:Trist: doesn't seem super contrived to
Speaker:Trist: me.
Speaker:Trist: Lots of interesting doubles in places.
Speaker:Trist: just as interesting as all of
Speaker:Trist: the textures and surprising
Speaker:Trist: places.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, really, really cool the way that some of the stacks
Speaker:Trist: happen in different places.
Speaker:Trist: Stacking that is just where the different harmonies happen.
Speaker:Trist: And again, even just doubles or
Speaker:Trist: triples of what the main melody
Speaker:Trist: is.
Speaker:Trist: Really well recorded.
Speaker:Trist: I really like the idea and the arrangement of the vocals.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, that was something that I heard as well.
Speaker:Elaine: it almost sounded untreated.
Speaker:Elaine: I know it wasn't completely flat, The main vocal was mixed a
Speaker:Elaine: lot more naturally.
Speaker:Elaine: But then you had these lush
Speaker:Elaine: vocals, what you were calling
Speaker:Elaine: stacking
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: just interspersed throughout this.
Speaker:Elaine: And when I say lush, I really mean that it felt really warm
Speaker:Elaine: and it felt very full, almost choral in terms of the type of
Speaker:Elaine: influence that she
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: had in those areas.
Speaker:Elaine: And they were not mixed very forward, they were very
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: textural, what you were talking about.
Speaker:Elaine: So wow, like those vocals and it sounded like her, right?
Speaker:Elaine: It sounded like
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: her overdubbing herself.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, there was a slightly
Speaker:Elaine: more digitized sound to those
Speaker:Elaine: lush vocals, though, they didn't
Speaker:Elaine: sound fully natural, but I felt
Speaker:Elaine: like that was a part of the
Speaker:Elaine: texture that she was trying to
Speaker:Elaine: go for.
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: Did you get that sense?
Speaker:Trist: Uh, I didn't.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Trist: I
Speaker:Elaine: Tell me,
Speaker:Trist: didn't
Speaker:Elaine: Tell me what you heard.
Speaker:Trist: know. I mean, I, I, I guess if I listened with those ears now, I
Speaker:Trist: might hear that.
Speaker:Trist: It didn't stick out to me that way.
Speaker:Trist: That may very well be the case.
Speaker:Trist: It just wasn't something that
Speaker:Trist: stuck out to me, that's all I meant.
Speaker:Elaine: One thing I also heard, and this is just a sidebar here.
Speaker:Elaine: There was definitely a huge use of stereo.
Speaker:Elaine: It was mixed left, right.
Speaker:Elaine: there were things that were moving left and right.
Speaker:Elaine: Uh,
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: during
Speaker:Trist: The
Speaker:Elaine: the
Speaker:Trist: utilization
Speaker:Elaine: entire trick.
Speaker:Trist: of of panning was robust for sure.
Speaker:Trist: Yes.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. Well, this actually led to the thought of because it's a
Speaker:Elaine: more modern piece.
Speaker:Elaine: Do you think that she was leveraging surround or 5.1?
Speaker:Elaine: Because I was not listening in
Speaker:Elaine: 5.1, and I'm kind of curious
Speaker:Elaine: whether that is something that
Speaker:Elaine: you thought she did or whether
Speaker:Elaine: that was something that you
Speaker:Elaine: heard.
Speaker:Trist: Because the surround mixes that
Speaker:Trist: are done these days are usually
Speaker:Trist: afterthoughts.
Speaker:Trist: And especially with where she is
Speaker:Trist: in putting this album, I think
Speaker:Trist: this one really kind of blew up
Speaker:Trist: for her.
Speaker:Trist: at this point, there's always a
Speaker:Trist: possibility and I'm not in the
Speaker:Trist: room.
Speaker:Trist: I'm not in her mind.
Speaker:Trist: I'm not in the producer's mind.
Speaker:Trist: You're usually thinking about that stuff way after.
Speaker:Trist: it's, "Wow, this one really blew up.
Speaker:Trist: They're giving us some money.
Speaker:Trist: The studio now, the label now wants a 5.1 mix.
Speaker:Trist: Now they want an Atmos surround mix of this.
Speaker:Trist: Let's take those tracks and see
Speaker:Trist: what we can do and spread it all
Speaker:Trist: out."
Speaker:Trist: So no, I don't think there's that kind of a thought.
Speaker:Trist: I think it's just using the
Speaker:Trist: stereo space as much as you can
Speaker:Trist: and just being really deliberate
Speaker:Trist: about how you actually utilize
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Trist: A lot of times, the mix is a
Speaker:Trist: little more conservative just
Speaker:Trist: because it plays in more places
Speaker:Trist: on our little speakers now, on
Speaker:Trist: our computers and on our phones
Speaker:Trist: and on our TVs and some of the
Speaker:Trist: lesser listening places, the
Speaker:Trist: kinds that we don't encourage as
Speaker:Trist: much here on The Musician's
Speaker:Trist: Loupe.
Speaker:Trist: You want it to sound good
Speaker:Trist: everywhere, so a lot of times
Speaker:Trist: there are fewer chances taken
Speaker:Trist: and things are kind of reined
Speaker:Trist: in.
Speaker:Trist: And I feel like that just was set aside.
Speaker:Trist: And yes, although vocals in the main parts are still going to be
Speaker:Trist: right, front, and center, but we're really going to play with
Speaker:Trist: the rest of it.
Speaker:Trist: I do hear what you hear though, and think it would be an amazing
Speaker:Trist: Atmos or surround mix.
Speaker:Trist: I just don't know that that's
Speaker:Trist: like the intent when it's being
Speaker:Trist: done necessarily in the first
Speaker:Trist: place.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. That's fair.
Speaker:Elaine: So let's switch gears and talk a little bit about the lyrics
Speaker:Elaine: because holy cows, is that packed as well.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. What struck you as you first got to these lyrics?
Speaker:Elaine: Well, they were incredibly poetic and they were covering
Speaker:Elaine: some really deep topics.
Speaker:Elaine: And so as I looked through what are these major themes?
Speaker:Elaine: I identified a ton of different themes.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm just going to throw them out here.
Speaker:Trist: Great.
Speaker:Elaine: Transcendence, transformation,
Speaker:Elaine: healing, fragility of life,
Speaker:Elaine: settling for the lowly things
Speaker:Elaine: over the more transcendent
Speaker:Elaine: things.
Speaker:Elaine: And missing out on the beauty of life.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: And these are just some of the
Speaker:Elaine: major themes that I heard, not
Speaker:Elaine: even just like individual lines
Speaker:Elaine: that I thought, oh, that was
Speaker:Elaine: amazing.
Speaker:Elaine: I feel like in your 20s, it is
Speaker:Elaine: something that you really are
Speaker:Elaine: looking for is like, what am I
Speaker:Elaine: doing here?
Speaker:Elaine: Like, what is the meaning of life?
Speaker:Elaine: You know, what's my
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: role in the world?
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: And I felt like it was very
Speaker:Elaine: thematic for this particular
Speaker:Elaine: time in someone's life as a
Speaker:Elaine: young adult, and I felt like it
Speaker:Elaine: was very appealing from that
Speaker:Elaine: perspective.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I got that too.
Speaker:Trist: She constantly says, "Gotta decide if I'm going to see it."
Speaker:Trist: It's like what you just said,
Speaker:Trist: focusing on what she calls "on
Speaker:Trist: lower things" while "beauty is a
Speaker:Trist: symptom of life" or "when
Speaker:Trist: suffering is craving the light,"
Speaker:Trist: she's mentioning all these
Speaker:Trist: things that you can decide to
Speaker:Trist: focus elsewhere.
Speaker:Trist: You can decide to see the beauty in things.
Speaker:Elaine: I also see the sense of personal evolution as a starting point.
Speaker:Elaine: There is this conversation that
Speaker:Elaine: happens at the very beginning
Speaker:Elaine: about a broken relationship,
Speaker:Elaine: which I think is a very
Speaker:Elaine: universal topic.
Speaker:Elaine: And she's talking about, I don't
Speaker:Elaine: know if I can go back because
Speaker:Elaine: I've already shed the skin,
Speaker:Elaine: because I've
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: already changed.
Speaker:Elaine: I've already transformed as an
Speaker:Elaine: individual, I've already
Speaker:Elaine: evolved.
Speaker:Elaine: And I felt like that was something that was a launching
Speaker:Elaine: point into this deeper conversation about what
Speaker:Elaine: evolution looks like.
Speaker:Elaine: And then when she gets to the
Speaker:Elaine: bridge, there is a sense of, all
Speaker:Elaine: right now there is this temple
Speaker:Elaine: of a god she doesn't know, like
Speaker:Elaine: finding the one who understands,
Speaker:Elaine: like why we wait for pain to
Speaker:Elaine: change us.
Speaker:Elaine: And so there's this like very philosophical thought.
Speaker:Elaine: And we have talked a bit about how the bridge in a pop song
Speaker:Elaine: setting is very conducive to kind of oh, this is the point
Speaker:Elaine: that they're trying to make, or this is the
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: point that the songwriter is trying to pivot around.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I just thought that was
Speaker:Elaine: interesting, where it starts out
Speaker:Elaine: from a almost mundane
Speaker:Elaine: transformation into this more
Speaker:Elaine: transcendent, more, holy
Speaker:Elaine: conversation as she's trying to
Speaker:Elaine: figure out again this meaning of
Speaker:Elaine: life, things having to do with
Speaker:Elaine: the divine.
Speaker:Elaine: She's really grappling with these things, and I don't think
Speaker:Elaine: she necessarily comes out with an answer, but the
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: fact that she's grappling with it is the core of this song.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I like how she asked, "Why do we wait for pain to change
Speaker:Trist: us?" "Why do we choose to see the lower things," like her
Speaker:Trist: coming to the realization, like you said, through this
Speaker:Trist: relationship, why does it take that happening for us to see?
Speaker:Trist: Very cool.
Speaker:Elaine: There's also these two animal
Speaker:Elaine: similes that I really wrote
Speaker:Elaine: down.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: And so like the concept of a simile, here's my former English
Speaker:Elaine: teacher is when you say something is like something
Speaker:Elaine: else, that's a simile.
Speaker:Elaine: And so, in the very beginning, there's this concept of "like a
Speaker:Elaine: snake shedding its skin."
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: Mmhm.
Speaker:Elaine: we have this,
Speaker:Trist: Rebirth
Speaker:Elaine: this like very
Speaker:Trist: beginning
Speaker:Elaine: close,
Speaker:Trist: again.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: exactly
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: like relationship between them.
Speaker:Elaine: And then at the end of the song,
Speaker:Elaine: there is "It's like a turtle in
Speaker:Elaine: the sand making way to the ocean /
Speaker:Elaine: almost
Speaker:Trist: MM.
Speaker:Elaine: meeting the end because birds are in motion"
Speaker:Trist: MM.
Speaker:Elaine: and thinking about, oh, these tiny little turtles that are
Speaker:Elaine: going into the ocean after they've hatched and they're
Speaker:Elaine: vulnerable during that time because the birds are going to
Speaker:Elaine: come down and eat these baby
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: turtles.
Speaker:Elaine: It was such a visual for me
Speaker:Elaine: because I think all of us have
Speaker:Elaine: seen those videos of like, oh my
Speaker:Elaine: goodness, these baby turtles,
Speaker:Elaine: baby turtles, make it into the
Speaker:Elaine: ocean!
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Um,
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: So I just felt like those were incredibly powerful visuals for
Speaker:Elaine: us in the midst of all of this conversation that's happening.
Speaker:Trist: Very cool.
Speaker:Trist: There's a lot there.
Speaker:Elaine: I was very surprised, I'd say, at how much I liked the song and
Speaker:Elaine: how much deeper it was once I, peeled back the layers, so to
Speaker:Elaine: speak, and really looked at it.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: I think this is a theme that we have been going into, which is I
Speaker:Elaine: don't think we really understand the depth of the artistry until
Speaker:Elaine: we really dig into it together.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: And that's something I really
Speaker:Elaine: appreciate about how we analyze
Speaker:Elaine: music as a part of The
Speaker:Elaine: Musician's Loupe.
Speaker:Trist: That's why we're here.
Speaker:Trist: I try to pick those kinds of things that there's some more to
Speaker:Trist: sink your teeth into and to have the listeners think about.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. Well, any last thoughts before we move on?
Speaker:Trist: We love multi-layered stuff like this.
Speaker:Trist: So if you have a thought about it and maybe we missed something
Speaker:Trist: in a lyric, or maybe you hear something else, and when you
Speaker:Trist: listen to it, you're getting a different message from the song.
Speaker:Trist: You can share that with us.
Speaker:Elaine: So you can email us at themusiciansloupe@gmail.com,
Speaker:Elaine: that is L o u p e, or you can message us on either Instagram
Speaker:Elaine: or Threads @themusiciansloupe, all one word.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, those are the places you can give us those ideas.
Speaker:Trist: Or if it reminds you of a
Speaker:Trist: different song that we should
Speaker:Trist: check out, or if there was
Speaker:Trist: something you didn't like about
Speaker:Trist: this song, let us know all of
Speaker:Trist: those things.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, thank you so much for introducing this to us, Trist.
Speaker:Elaine: I really appreciate it.
Speaker:Elaine: This is definitely an interesting listen.
Speaker:Elaine: And with that, we're going to move on to.
Speaker:Trist: Mail. Bag. Mail bag.
Speaker:Elaine: That's right.
Speaker:Elaine: The Mailbag and this week's
Speaker:Elaine: Mailbag comes from Threads as
Speaker:Elaine: well.
Speaker:Elaine: We've definitely been sourcing from our friends at Threads,
Speaker:Elaine: just really kicking off conversation for us.
Speaker:Elaine: This one comes from Chris SCC Studios from December of 2025.
Speaker:Elaine: And it is an encouragement, maybe a rant.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know if it's going to be taken this way, but really
Speaker:Elaine: geared towards singers.
Speaker:Elaine: So he writes, "Singers.
Speaker:Elaine: Colon.
Speaker:Elaine: You are a musician too.
Speaker:Elaine: Your instrument is your voice.
Speaker:Elaine: Start training yourselves to think and adapt like a musician.
Speaker:Elaine: Learn to speak the language of musicians and musicianship."
Speaker:Trist: MM.
Speaker:Elaine: Any good reactions
Speaker:Trist: That's
Speaker:Elaine: to that?
Speaker:Trist: that's good advice, Yeah, this is true, Actually, when you
Speaker:Trist: started that, I thought it was going a different direction.
Speaker:Trist: All true.
Speaker:Trist: really, no matter how you contribute, whether you're an
Speaker:Trist: engineer, a producer, a singer, a writer, play an instrument, or
Speaker:Trist: use your voice as your instrument, all the musical
Speaker:Trist: knowledge that you can gain by listening to podcasts like this,
Speaker:Trist: etc. will all be helpful.
Speaker:Trist: yeah, learn to speak the language of the people around
Speaker:Trist: you that's in any craft and no matter what you do.
Speaker:Trist: Know the tools that your craft uses and know the language that
Speaker:Trist: your craft speaks and be able to be a part of that.
Speaker:Trist: I kind of thought it was going into the, semantics that happen
Speaker:Trist: frequently, usually unintentionally, but can be
Speaker:Trist: perceived as slights.
Speaker:Trist: Okay, let's have the singers
Speaker:Trist: over here and the musicians over
Speaker:Trist: there.
Speaker:Trist: a linguistic thing that no one intends any slight.
Speaker:Trist: They're just trying to differentiate.
Speaker:Trist: They want some vocalists over there and some instrumentalists,
Speaker:Trist: but they don't use those words.
Speaker:Trist: And so sometimes when they're said that way, there's the
Speaker:Trist: implication that the singers are not musicians, even if the
Speaker:Trist: person who said it is the most equality based person ever and
Speaker:Trist: does not think of those kinds of slights, they're literally using
Speaker:Trist: a semantic thing that they don't realize that they're doing.
Speaker:Trist: that's what I thought that was starting.
Speaker:Trist: still, I'm with Chris
Speaker:Elaine: It's interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: I had this experience fairly recently, a couple of months
Speaker:Elaine: ago, where I was singing harmony on something and the harmony
Speaker:Elaine: that was in the reference track that they wanted me to memorize
Speaker:Elaine: was out of the chord.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I was like, well, wait a minute, shouldn't it be this?
Speaker:Elaine: And I sang the thing and it basically came down to Elaine.
Speaker:Elaine: You were thinking of the music
Speaker:Elaine: like a musician, not as a
Speaker:Elaine: singer.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm like, well, wait a minute, is it a musician, a
Speaker:Elaine: singer as well?
Speaker:Elaine: And so I just thought it was a funny kind of thing.
Speaker:Elaine: She was like, it's a compliment
Speaker:Elaine: that you are thinking of things
Speaker:Elaine: like, yes, I'm holding this
Speaker:Elaine: harmony in the key that we are
Speaker:Elaine: playing.
Speaker:Elaine: And so yeah.
Speaker:Trist: And there's some note in that piano or guitar part that's
Speaker:Trist: conflicting with the note you want me to sing.
Speaker:Elaine: Exactly.
Speaker:Trist: Hello?
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Um,
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: let me ask you this question as
Speaker:Elaine: a follow up, you and I are both
Speaker:Elaine: fairly classically trained: me
Speaker:Elaine: from a piano perspective, but
Speaker:Elaine: also being a part of a formal
Speaker:Elaine: choir.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think you as well, both of us read music.
Speaker:Elaine: Where have you seen that open doors for you?
Speaker:Elaine: And in the number of people that
Speaker:Elaine: you've worked with, where have
Speaker:Elaine: you seen the lack of that kind
Speaker:Elaine: of skill closing doors for other
Speaker:Elaine: people?
Speaker:Trist: Hm. It depends on what the situation is.
Speaker:Trist: If you're being hired to do a particular job and there's a
Speaker:Trist: particular set of skills in terms of language to use and oh,
Speaker:Trist: when the person that hired me describes what they want, can I
Speaker:Trist: do what they mean?
Speaker:Trist: So sometimes it's just that.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes it's just, oh, I understand enough musically that
Speaker:Trist: when they say these things, I understand what they mean.
Speaker:Trist: and where that can hurt is if
Speaker:Trist: you just don't have that, you
Speaker:Trist: might be completely well
Speaker:Trist: equipped to do what you're
Speaker:Trist: asked.
Speaker:Trist: You just aren't familiar with it
Speaker:Trist: enough to understand what they
Speaker:Trist: mean.
Speaker:Trist: You might not get hired back.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, oh, that person was fine.
Speaker:Trist: And they were a good person.
Speaker:Trist: Just it felt like they were
Speaker:Trist: behind every time I said
Speaker:Trist: something, the rest of the group
Speaker:Trist: of singers did this, and it took
Speaker:Trist: them a minute to figure out what
Speaker:Trist: I meant.
Speaker:Trist: So it's mostly that kind of stuff.
Speaker:Trist: Or if it's something not as crucial or time oriented.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, you're with a band and you're putting a thing together
Speaker:Trist: for maybe one performance you need to do.
Speaker:Trist: Well, the decision on whether
Speaker:Trist: that group should stay together
Speaker:Trist: and make music or just keep it
Speaker:Trist: as the one time thing you were
Speaker:Trist: designed for probably comes down
Speaker:Trist: to, oh, did you work well
Speaker:Trist: together?
Speaker:Trist: Is everybody on the same page?
Speaker:Trist: Does everybody use the same language?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, three of the five people are really good sight readers and
Speaker:Trist: the other two are not.
Speaker:Trist: That's fine.
Speaker:Trist: But the things that we need don't have very much
Speaker:Trist: preparation, and we just put the music in front of us and we go.
Speaker:Trist: And so those of you who don't really read, it just doesn't fly
Speaker:Trist: with this thing.
Speaker:Trist: There are other situations where not being able to necessarily
Speaker:Trist: read won't be a hindrance, but in some cases it might be.
Speaker:Elaine: To that point, I feel like you
Speaker:Elaine: were talking about session
Speaker:Elaine: singing.
Speaker:Elaine: You were talking about the types of things where you need to
Speaker:Elaine: learn how to sight read music.
Speaker:Elaine: I know that I've worked with
Speaker:Elaine: people in the past who haven't
Speaker:Elaine: been able to read music, and the
Speaker:Elaine: way that they learn music is
Speaker:Elaine: very audio.
Speaker:Elaine: It is very brute force in order to memorize it.
Speaker:Elaine: And there is a sense of when I
Speaker:Elaine: can read something, I know that
Speaker:Elaine: I can get it a lot faster
Speaker:Elaine: because I'm like, oh, that's the
Speaker:Elaine: third.
Speaker:Elaine: I can read exactly what my part is.
Speaker:Elaine: And in some ways, it's almost a shortcut that I can take as
Speaker:Elaine: opposed to the brute force.
Speaker:Elaine: I need to listen to this.
Speaker:Elaine: And I find myself sometimes when
Speaker:Elaine: I have to listen to a reference
Speaker:Elaine: track, and this is the part that
Speaker:Elaine: I'm singing.
Speaker:Elaine: I gotta think, okay, am I starting on the three?
Speaker:Elaine: Am I starting on the one?
Speaker:Elaine: Like, how am I thinking about this?
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm writing that into my music so that I have a reference
Speaker:Elaine: point of where I'm going to be able to pick up my note.
Speaker:Elaine: So it's interesting to think about how different people learn
Speaker:Elaine: music even, and
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: how that impacts what
Speaker:Elaine: opportunities they have in the
Speaker:Elaine: future.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think, the times that I've
Speaker:Elaine: sung in, I'd say more casual
Speaker:Elaine: situations.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, I wouldn't call my current church, gig experience
Speaker:Elaine: casual at all.
Speaker:Elaine: But for some of the other areas where it's been more, hey, we
Speaker:Elaine: have all volunteer people, they're maybe not the most
Speaker:Elaine: classically trained people, they are taught themselves how to
Speaker:Elaine: play their instrument.
Speaker:Elaine: Sometimes they don't really know
Speaker:Elaine: how to speak to other
Speaker:Elaine: instruments.
Speaker:Elaine: Our current music director plays all the instruments that he
Speaker:Elaine: leads, and so he is able to give our drummer very clear
Speaker:Elaine: indications of this is exactly the sound that I want, at this
Speaker:Elaine: point in time, because of X, Y, or Z. And he will give these
Speaker:Elaine: directions on the fly.
Speaker:Elaine: And the same thing to the bass, He will talk about this is what
Speaker:Elaine: I'm hearing in the bass, I want you to slap here.
Speaker:Elaine: I want you to, go down to this note and come up over here.
Speaker:Elaine: To me, he knows that I prefer to play based off of numbers,
Speaker:Elaine: because as an acoustic guitarist, I'm constantly like
Speaker:Elaine: transposing in my head.
Speaker:Elaine: And so it's
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: easier just to be like, okay, I'm playing a form and like capo 4
Speaker:Elaine: or something. Oh,
Speaker:Elaine: you want me to move up capo? Cool.
Speaker:Elaine: I
Speaker:Elaine: will do that. And
Speaker:Elaine: so he knows that he's calling things out to the bass in
Speaker:Elaine: actual notes. He's
Speaker:Elaine: calling things out to me in numbers. He's
Speaker:Elaine: calling things out to the drummer by exactly what kind of fill
Speaker:Elaine: he wants.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: And he is able to speak all of
Speaker:Elaine: our languages to lead us in that
Speaker:Elaine: particular way.
Speaker:Elaine: And he's a keyboard player.
Speaker:Elaine: Of course, he plays everything, right?
Speaker:Elaine: But he's playing keys at the same time.
Speaker:Elaine: And so as I'm thinking about
Speaker:Elaine: what does it mean to speak the
Speaker:Elaine: language of music in the way
Speaker:Elaine: that Chris is talking about, and
Speaker:Elaine: what kind of additional
Speaker:Elaine: opportunities that it gives to
Speaker:Elaine: you?
Speaker:Elaine: I think is an interesting thing
Speaker:Elaine: for us to think about because
Speaker:Elaine: you and I like, we're just, I
Speaker:Elaine: don't want to say hyper
Speaker:Elaine: educated, but we definitely come
Speaker:Elaine: with a foundation of music
Speaker:Elaine: education that I think a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: other musicians don't
Speaker:Elaine: necessarily have.
Speaker:Trist: Well, and what you just described is a perfect example
Speaker:Trist: of like, those things are crucial to his job.
Speaker:Trist: But then what happens is,
Speaker:Trist: sometimes when someone
Speaker:Trist: experiences that they start
Speaker:Trist: thinking lesser of their ability
Speaker:Trist: to participate in music because
Speaker:Trist: they can't tell all of the
Speaker:Trist: musicians, the stuff that your
Speaker:Trist: leader can tell everybody that
Speaker:Trist: doesn't make what they do any
Speaker:Trist: less viable.
Speaker:Trist: If the person that's doing the
Speaker:Trist: lead vocals in that exact same
Speaker:Trist: band is absolutely amazing, is
Speaker:Trist: like really moving the
Speaker:Trist: congregation.
Speaker:Trist: Like the songs are like, wow, some people come to church just
Speaker:Trist: to hear that person sing
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Trist: and they don't understand a
Speaker:Trist: single thing that that leader is
Speaker:Trist: talking about.
Speaker:Trist: That's also perfectly okay,
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah,
Speaker:Trist: because their job isn't there to know all of that
Speaker:Elaine: exactly.
Speaker:Trist: stuff.
Speaker:Trist: Their job is to sing and communicate and share the music
Speaker:Trist: and share their gift and talent.
Speaker:Trist: Sure, it's helpful if they understand those things when it
Speaker:Trist: ends up being related to them.
Speaker:Trist: But, I think a lot of times it's
Speaker:Trist: very easy for people to put that
Speaker:Trist: on themselves.
Speaker:Trist: Oh wow.
Speaker:Trist: If that thing where I just showed up and I sang and people
Speaker:Trist: really liked what we did, but all that conversation that
Speaker:Trist: happened in the band behind me, I didn't really understand what
Speaker:Trist: they were talking about.
Speaker:Trist: So I must not be really good at music because I don't know all
Speaker:Trist: of those things.
Speaker:Trist: Yes, you won't be hired to do
Speaker:Trist: those things because you can't
Speaker:Trist: speak to them that way, but
Speaker:Trist: that's fine.
Speaker:Trist: That's not the thing that you're trying to do.
Speaker:Trist: So that's where when people ask me about that, how important is
Speaker:Trist: it to read music?
Speaker:Trist: Well, it's important if you want
Speaker:Trist: jobs that require you to read
Speaker:Trist: music.
Speaker:Trist: I know that sounds remedial every time I say it, but it's
Speaker:Trist: like when people ask me that.
Speaker:Trist: And people over the years have asked me that all the time.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, well, it's only important when it's important.
Speaker:Trist: It's a tool that can help you regardless.
Speaker:Trist: Um, but its import is up to you and what you want to do and
Speaker:Trist: where you fit in.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. I want to add one more thing as an encouragement to
Speaker:Elaine: anyone who is looking to level up is that these are skills.
Speaker:Elaine: It is not something that is inherent in any of us
Speaker:Trist: Best.
Speaker:Elaine: to know how to read music or to learn this language.
Speaker:Elaine: It is something that can be learned.
Speaker:Elaine: It's something that can be taught, and it's something that
Speaker:Elaine: you can learn as well.
Speaker:Elaine: So I think that
Speaker:Trist: Absolutely.
Speaker:Elaine: that's something that we want to encourage people, if you want to
Speaker:Elaine: level up, please do.
Speaker:Elaine: Look into the resources.
Speaker:Elaine: Look into how you might be able to improve your listening,
Speaker:Elaine: improve how you sight read.
Speaker:Elaine: It is always a skills improvement game in everything
Speaker:Elaine: that we do, whether it is technically, whether it is, how
Speaker:Elaine: you think of your voice and how you train your voice over time.
Speaker:Elaine: We've been talking about,
Speaker:Elaine: musicians treating their
Speaker:Elaine: instruments and their learning
Speaker:Elaine: and their practice like athletes
Speaker:Elaine: do.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'd say that singers also
Speaker:Elaine: have that opportunity to improve
Speaker:Elaine: their instrument, improve their
Speaker:Elaine: voice, improve their vocal
Speaker:Elaine: health.
Speaker:Elaine: There's a whole lot of things
Speaker:Elaine: that you can do to improve not
Speaker:Elaine: only your technical skills, but
Speaker:Elaine: also training how your voice
Speaker:Elaine: works.
Speaker:Elaine: These are
Speaker:Trist: Very
Speaker:Elaine: all things
Speaker:Trist: true,
Speaker:Elaine: that you can do.
Speaker:Trist: very true. Great point, Elaine.
Speaker:Trist: Great point.
Speaker:Trist: We
Speaker:Elaine: Well,
Speaker:Trist: like
Speaker:Elaine: any last
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Elaine: thoughts before we close up?
Speaker:Trist: That is all.
Speaker:Trist: I think that's it.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, we want to encourage you
Speaker:Elaine: all to please, please, please
Speaker:Elaine: share an episode with one of
Speaker:Elaine: your friends.
Speaker:Elaine: If you're listening to us, you obviously love music and we're
Speaker:Elaine: hoping that you have friends who also love music.
Speaker:Elaine: And so one of the things that
Speaker:Elaine: you can do to help us expand our
Speaker:Elaine: reach is to share a podcast
Speaker:Elaine: episode with a friend, because
Speaker:Elaine: we would love to reach more
Speaker:Elaine: people.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. If you have a friend who
Speaker:Trist: might like one of the songs we
Speaker:Trist: covered, or maybe it's a song
Speaker:Trist: that you already know that you
Speaker:Trist: like and you can share what we
Speaker:Trist: talked about.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe we hit on a subject or hit something in the lyrics that you
Speaker:Trist: hadn't thought of.
Speaker:Trist: Of a favorite song that you and a friend share.
Speaker:Trist: And also don't hesitate to subscribe, rate, review, let us
Speaker:Trist: know your thoughts, suggestions, we really do appreciate it helps
Speaker:Trist: us out a lot.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, thank you very much and we will see you all next week.
Speaker:Trist: By.
Speaker:Trist: Recording stopped.
Speaker:Elaine: I know.
Speaker:Trist: Edit that out.
Speaker:Trist: Let me, I'll use my words.
Speaker:Trist: Or if you don't like us, you can let us know that too.
Speaker:Trist: We don't really care.
Speaker:Trist: Listen to the cool songs.
Speaker:Trist: That's the most important part.
