Hocket, pocket, and a surprise brass breakdown: Workin' Day and Night (Michael Jackson)
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWnyCxva6bA
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/6BdiFsPMPkSEEO4fFXFVWX
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/workin-day-and-night/186166410
- Amazon - https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B00138KJY0?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_n0DKAlMsv9XvZL5bSVgX5cY0z&trackAsin=B00137QO0O
Other links
- Hocket in horns breakdown
- Jackson family demo of Workin’ Day and Night
- Horns in the NY subway station (Lucky Chops)
Key takeaways
- In this episode, Trist and Elaine explore how Michael Jackson incorporates the ancient musical technique of hocket, originating from 13th-14th century choral music, into his song "Workin' Day and Night," creating a seamless melody from alternating instrumental parts
- The discussion highlights the rich, human elements of the "Off the Wall" album, including live brass sections, hand drums, and vocal percussive sounds, contrasting it with later albums that relied more heavily on synthesizers and programmed sounds
- Elaine and Trist discuss how musicians with corporate jobs can play a vital role in the music industry by using their income to fund projects, pay fellow musicians, and sustain their passion for music while maintaining financial stability
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist!
Speaker:Elaine: What do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Elaine, this week we have (finally) Michael Jackson.
Speaker:Elaine: Ooooh.
Speaker:Trist: That's
Speaker:Elaine: Oh,
Speaker:Trist: right,
Speaker:Elaine: yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Michael Jackson.
Speaker:Trist: You know, um, inevitable that we
Speaker:Trist: would cover a Michael Jackson
Speaker:Trist: song.
Speaker:Elaine: Of course.
Speaker:Trist: Um, and there may be other
Speaker:Trist: Michael Jackson songs that
Speaker:Trist: employ this technique, but this
Speaker:Trist: song employs a technique that's
Speaker:Trist: from the 13th, 14th century
Speaker:Trist: choral music
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: called hocket.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. I have never heard of this.
Speaker:Trist: Perfect. This is what I was going for.
Speaker:Trist: So Michael Jackson with the technique of hocket.
Speaker:Trist: Ooh, I can hear people sharing right now and not turning off
Speaker:Trist: the podcast at all.
Speaker:Trist: They're so excited to hear what this is.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so.
Speaker:Elaine: So tell me what hocket is.
Speaker:Trist: Well, this song is "Workin' Day and Night."
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: And, well, we'll just save it.
Speaker:Trist: You want to listen to the song?
Speaker:Trist: We'll talk about it after people give a listen.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. So we're going to put the links in the show notes for you
Speaker:Elaine: to listen to.
Speaker:Elaine: And we're going to pause in just a moment.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we do, Trist, can you, especially for our new
Speaker:Elaine: listeners, tell us how we should be listening to music?
Speaker:Trist: Well, especially for this one, so many moving parts.
Speaker:Trist: It's such a thick, arrangement.
Speaker:Trist: it's really great to get as many
Speaker:Trist: details as you can and get
Speaker:Trist: yourself in the best listening
Speaker:Trist: environment.
Speaker:Trist: Make no mistake, we're thrilled
Speaker:Trist: that you're joining us in any
Speaker:Trist: capacity.
Speaker:Trist: If your - podcast time is out on a walk and you've just got your
Speaker:Trist: AirPods on, great.
Speaker:Trist: We're glad to have you.
Speaker:Trist: If it's in the car and your car stereo is terrible, great, we're
Speaker:Trist: glad to have you.
Speaker:Trist: But if you do have the opportunity to improve your
Speaker:Trist: listening environment, you can grab the nicer headphones.
Speaker:Trist: You can go to your listening room in your cave, whatever it
Speaker:Trist: is, if you can improve, why not take the chance to do it?
Speaker:Trist: I don't think in our lives these days, we take enough chances to
Speaker:Trist: stop and just improve our our quality of listening.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, we're going to
Speaker:Elaine: pause for a moment and we'll be
Speaker:Elaine: right back.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: And we are back.
Speaker:Elaine: Wow.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Elaine: This was actually not one that I
Speaker:Elaine: had heard before, this time
Speaker:Elaine: around.
Speaker:Trist: Really?
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. You know, growing up with Michael Jackson, you hear a lot
Speaker:Elaine: of "Thriller," "Billie Jean," there's a whole bunch of the
Speaker:Elaine: classics that played on the radio all the time.
Speaker:Elaine: But I really did not get that
Speaker:Elaine: much into Michael Jackson's
Speaker:Elaine: entire discography while growing
Speaker:Elaine: up.
Speaker:Trist: Wow. Yeah. You know, it is interesting, I think.
Speaker:Trist: Me and a lot of my friends that were into that.
Speaker:Trist: We had the full albums and listened to "Off the Wall" and
Speaker:Trist: "Thriller" all the way through, over and over and over that
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: I actually forget that some of these songs that to me are so
Speaker:Trist: like, there were literal hits and singles that were released
Speaker:Trist: from those albums, but because there were so many and I didn't
Speaker:Trist: just own the singles, I had the albums, listened to them all.
Speaker:Trist: So I don't think of them.
Speaker:Trist: But yeah, you're right, this was not released as a single.
Speaker:Trist: It was actually a B-side to some other released singles.
Speaker:Trist: So that does make sense.
Speaker:Trist: I have to get out of my own little world of me and my
Speaker:Trist: musician friends who always listen to all of this stuff.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. And you know, I'm getting
Speaker:Elaine: to be one of those people as
Speaker:Elaine: well in terms of listening to
Speaker:Elaine: entire albums.
Speaker:Elaine: That is something that
Speaker:Elaine: especially nowadays when we're
Speaker:Elaine: so algorithm driven, it is
Speaker:Elaine: really challenging to listen to
Speaker:Elaine: things that are a part of a
Speaker:Elaine: broader album.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, I'm really curious about this whole thing that you
Speaker:Elaine: mentioned right before the break, which was
Speaker:Trist: Haha.
Speaker:Elaine: Hocket.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm really curious now.
Speaker:Trist: So the place where the concept
Speaker:Trist: of a hocket comes into play are
Speaker:Trist: those nice extended brass
Speaker:Trist: sections,
Speaker:Elaine: Mm.
Speaker:Trist: those
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: horn sections.
Speaker:Trist: So when you just as a casual listen, you hear what you hear
Speaker:Trist: and you hear like a little melody and a rhythm of what the
Speaker:Trist: horn parts are.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: turns out that those sections
Speaker:Trist: have two different recordings
Speaker:Trist: happening simultaneously.
Speaker:Trist: So, where you have two or more
Speaker:Trist: lines happening independently of
Speaker:Trist: one another,
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: but when you listen to the final product altogether, the end
Speaker:Trist: result is you only hear one line of melody, even though it's been
Speaker:Trist: displaced into different parts.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. So our
Speaker:Trist: So
Speaker:Elaine: brains.
Speaker:Trist: two, three or four voices.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. You end up going, oh, the melody is da da da da, whatever.
Speaker:Trist: This is the melody.
Speaker:Trist: But then
Speaker:Elaine: Um.
Speaker:Trist: you find out, oh, this one person, he's saying, da da da da
Speaker:Trist: da da da da.
Speaker:Trist: And the other person saying da da da da.
Speaker:Trist: You alternate the parts, but the
Speaker:Trist: end result sounds like just one
Speaker:Trist: continuous line.
Speaker:Elaine: Ah, interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. I've heard this technique in lots of a cappella and choral
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: pieces before.
Speaker:Elaine: So I get what you're talking about now in terms of what our
Speaker:Elaine: brains interpret as a melody.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Trist: So that I'm gonna sing it wrong.
Speaker:Trist: But like that whole middle section where it's like
Speaker:Trist: *singing* My brain is thinking what that whole section is.
Speaker:Trist: And there's a really great video we will also put in the show
Speaker:Trist: notes that you should check out.
Speaker:Trist: And it plays the example all together.
Speaker:Trist: Then it plays the example again.
Speaker:Trist: And it takes out one of the two horn parts isolated.
Speaker:Trist: And so you can hear just one of the rhythms.
Speaker:Trist: And when you hear it separately you're like, "Oh, totally."
Speaker:Trist: Like it makes perfect sense when you hear it apart.
Speaker:Trist: But having not heard it apart before, I'd never would have
Speaker:Trist: picked it out because it's mixed so well together and written so
Speaker:Trist: well again, as hocket should.
Speaker:Trist: So.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I'm kind of curious.
Speaker:Elaine: As an arranger, why would you
Speaker:Elaine: choose to use this technique
Speaker:Elaine: versus doing the melodic line
Speaker:Elaine: all together in a single set of
Speaker:Elaine: instruments, or a single set of
Speaker:Elaine: voices?
Speaker:Trist: Jerry Hey is the great arranger
Speaker:Trist: of all of these Michael Jackson
Speaker:Trist: horns that you think of in this
Speaker:Trist: era.
Speaker:Trist: And the Seawind horns.
Speaker:Trist: It's a group of players like ninety percent the same guys all
Speaker:Trist: the time on literally hundreds of albums that we've all heard,
Speaker:Trist: and hit songs.
Speaker:Trist: That's all I can think of, is
Speaker:Trist: why you would do is just because
Speaker:Trist: you want these rhythms that are
Speaker:Trist: actually maybe more difficult to
Speaker:Trist: play.
Speaker:Trist: I'm not sure I'm gonna
Speaker:Trist: investigate that a little bit,
Speaker:Trist: see if I can find some Jerry Hey
Speaker:Trist: interviews.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe someone asks him about that.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I think that that was exactly where my mind went.
Speaker:Elaine: And the reason I say that is a
Speaker:Elaine: lot of times in a cappella, when
Speaker:Elaine: you're doing that kind of thing,
Speaker:Elaine: it's because otherwise the jump
Speaker:Elaine: is really, really challenging
Speaker:Elaine: for
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: a voice to do, especially
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: if you're talking about a jump
Speaker:Elaine: that's more than a fifth or it
Speaker:Elaine: jumps between two different
Speaker:Elaine: registers.
Speaker:Elaine: It
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: is one of those things where you
Speaker:Elaine: can keep some of the singers in
Speaker:Elaine: one register and some of the
Speaker:Elaine: other singers in other
Speaker:Elaine: registers.
Speaker:Elaine: And that is one thing that you can play around with to at least
Speaker:Elaine: take advantage of where your break is, etc.
Speaker:Trist: That's a good point.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I think in those instances you're talking about, especially
Speaker:Trist: when you're arranging for a certain amount of voices a
Speaker:Trist: cappella, sometimes you're doing things like that not just to be
Speaker:Trist: creative or to be interesting, but out of necessity, like, oh,
Speaker:Trist: this part spans a huge range.
Speaker:Trist: So sometimes out of necessity rather than just, uh, choice.
Speaker:Elaine: Exactly.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I also want to investigate
Speaker:Trist: if he employed that any other
Speaker:Trist: places.
Speaker:Trist: I will say I've heard this similar kind of thing ever
Speaker:Trist: since, we dug into this and I noticed that that was the case.
Speaker:Trist: So that's been interesting to realize.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, one of the things I was
Speaker:Elaine: thinking about as I was
Speaker:Elaine: listening to this is where this
Speaker:Elaine: fits into Michael Jackson's
Speaker:Elaine: entire discography, but also
Speaker:Elaine: within what was popular during
Speaker:Elaine: that time.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, I seem to remember this
Speaker:Elaine: came out in the early 80s,
Speaker:Elaine: right?
Speaker:Trist: I think 1980.
Speaker:Elaine: 1980, yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: So we're thinking about the late 1970s and Tower of Power, a lot
Speaker:Elaine: of the very brass and funk type of influence that
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: we have into the early 1980s.
Speaker:Elaine: And the reason I mention this is by the time we're hitting the
Speaker:Elaine: late 1980s, early 1990s, there's a lot more synth and a lot less
Speaker:Elaine: brass in Michael Jackson's work, at least what was released as
Speaker:Elaine: singles is that, what
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: you heard
Speaker:Trist: This
Speaker:Elaine: as well?
Speaker:Trist: is, one of the main reasons I like this album the most.
Speaker:Trist: Obviously, "Thriller" is an
Speaker:Trist: undeniable smash, worldwide,
Speaker:Trist: generationally.
Speaker:Trist: Everyone knows, loves it, had the bigger hits.
Speaker:Trist: But this precursor, I think a lot of my friends agree with me.
Speaker:Trist: We're like, oh, yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker:Trist: Man, "Off the Wall" has so much good stuff.
Speaker:Trist: And I think I like the lack of technology.
Speaker:Trist: There's some technology that didn't exist yet.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: Um, and it was a little bit the case for Thriller, but even
Speaker:Trist: Thriller, there's a little bit more synthesizer stuff like, oh,
Speaker:Trist: this is a brand new thing we're going to try out.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: Um, and there's nothing wrong that, you know, musicians have
Speaker:Trist: always been like that.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, here's this new toy, new
Speaker:Trist: sounds that we haven't heard
Speaker:Trist: before.
Speaker:Trist: We're always seeking to create and try new things.
Speaker:Trist: which is cool.
Speaker:Trist: also with sequencing, on some of this stuff, all the percussion
Speaker:Trist: and stuff that happens, like
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: try to recreate this track now and because of, how much time
Speaker:Trist: and money it costs to be in a studio or just time that it
Speaker:Trist: takes to do whatever.
Speaker:Trist: On these, there's someone
Speaker:Trist: banging on a glass bottle for
Speaker:Trist: five minutes.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: They're grooving.
Speaker:Trist: Instead of like, hey, give me about five minutes and I'm going
Speaker:Trist: to push all the buttons on this rhythm machine, and I'm going to
Speaker:Trist: program it, and then it's going to be done, and we can just
Speaker:Trist: press play, and then we can get on to the rest of it.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, no, there are real
Speaker:Trist: humans in there grooving on
Speaker:Trist: every little element, not just
Speaker:Trist: like the horn parts and the
Speaker:Trist: guitar parts.
Speaker:Trist: So back to your talking about the technology.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I like that about this.
Speaker:Trist: I like that you wouldn't really use synth horns.
Speaker:Trist: You have real horns and you wouldn't have, just programmed,
Speaker:Trist: shakers and percussion.
Speaker:Trist: Man, no one makes records like this anymore.
Speaker:Trist: It just costs so much more money to do all of this, when you can
Speaker:Trist: kind of get what you're going for and still have a big record
Speaker:Trist: sound like you want, but man, I love this old way of doing it.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, one of the things that is
Speaker:Elaine: very different about when when
Speaker:Elaine: you're talking about doing real
Speaker:Elaine: live brass is just how loud it
Speaker:Elaine: is.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm just thinking about, some of these all brass environments
Speaker:Elaine: that you're in, whether it's like New Orleans jazz or,
Speaker:Elaine: there's this one group that I was watching on YouTube where
Speaker:Elaine: it's like ten brass players in the New York subway.
Speaker:Elaine: And, you know that's just a wall of sound, right?
Speaker:Elaine: Because brass is just
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: so loud.
Speaker:Elaine: Or you go to a jazz club or,
Speaker:Elaine: some of the Latin music that you
Speaker:Elaine: hear that is very, very brass
Speaker:Elaine: heavy.
Speaker:Elaine: There is such volume that's
Speaker:Elaine: involved with that and it's so
Speaker:Elaine: thrilling, right?
Speaker:Elaine: You hear a group like Tower of Power and you're like, oh my
Speaker:Elaine: goodness, I'm blown away just by the sheer volume
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: of
Speaker:Trist: You
Speaker:Elaine: the
Speaker:Trist: feel
Speaker:Elaine: brass.
Speaker:Trist: the you feel the energy when
Speaker:Trist: you're in the same space with it
Speaker:Trist: more
Speaker:Elaine: Exactly.
Speaker:Trist: than you can, even if it's
Speaker:Trist: really perfect, amazing samples
Speaker:Trist: of it, just doesn't have the
Speaker:Trist: energy.
Speaker:Trist: The literal SPLs, the sound
Speaker:Trist: pressure levels of the air
Speaker:Trist: moving through the club isn't
Speaker:Trist: the same.
Speaker:Elaine: Exactly.
Speaker:Elaine: So that actually leads me to another question that I had.
Speaker:Elaine: There were definitely elements in the breakdown where I heard
Speaker:Elaine: drums, like more hand drums as opposed to a kit drum.
Speaker:Elaine: And that was an interesting choice that I thought everything
Speaker:Elaine: else was like, oh, you know, you could see this in a funk band.
Speaker:Elaine: Any thoughts about the
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: choice
Speaker:Trist: All
Speaker:Elaine: there?
Speaker:Trist: of the percussion through the whole thing.
Speaker:Trist: Michael Jackson throughout all
Speaker:Trist: of his recorded history, always
Speaker:Trist: had his kind of heavy vocal
Speaker:Trist: breathing and vocal percussive
Speaker:Trist: kind of things that he'd always
Speaker:Trist: do.
Speaker:Trist: His very unique to him kind of
Speaker:Trist: sounds, at the entrance, there
Speaker:Trist: was always like little breaths
Speaker:Trist: and vocal percussion-y kinds of
Speaker:Trist: things.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Uh, he would do that a lot.
Speaker:Trist: And throughout they're kind of
Speaker:Trist: there, blended in in some other
Speaker:Trist: places.
Speaker:Trist: But some places things are stripped away and you can hear
Speaker:Trist: that he's doing that.
Speaker:Trist: And that's really through a lot of his catalog and these kinds
Speaker:Trist: of funky, groovy tunes.
Speaker:Trist: But yeah, choosing just some
Speaker:Trist: different hey, on this
Speaker:Trist: breakdown, we'll just use these
Speaker:Trist: bongos or these congas or these
Speaker:Trist: other, like, you say, hand drums
Speaker:Trist: or whatever.
Speaker:Trist: I understand from just these
Speaker:Trist: productions, Quincy Jones
Speaker:Trist: productions, are always like
Speaker:Trist: that.
Speaker:Trist: He's a consummate musician and always thinking of interesting
Speaker:Trist: colors and textures to to keep things alive and, varied.
Speaker:Trist: I think the essence here with
Speaker:Trist: Michael Jackson, especially on
Speaker:Trist: any of these funky groove tunes,
Speaker:Trist: obviously not some of the
Speaker:Trist: ballads and things, but, if you
Speaker:Trist: see any video of him or when
Speaker:Trist: he's ever talking about the
Speaker:Trist: music.
Speaker:Trist: Or if you see some of the documentaries where he's in
Speaker:Trist: rehearsal and he's conveying to the band what he wants.
Speaker:Trist: He's never talking technically.
Speaker:Trist: He's
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: always just explaining.
Speaker:Trist: No. Right there.
Speaker:Trist: He's like, always just giving
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: a feel.
Speaker:Trist: It's so in him.
Speaker:Trist: Another thing that I'll add in the show notes, you can hear, on
Speaker:Trist: one of the reissues of the CD Off the Wall.
Speaker:Trist: There is a demo of this song "Workin' Day and Night."
Speaker:Trist: Where just at their house on a tape recorder, him and his
Speaker:Trist: brothers and sisters.
Speaker:Trist: And Janet Jackson, too.
Speaker:Trist: So he already had this idea of how the whole thing should feel.
Speaker:Trist: So he could play that for Quincy
Speaker:Trist: Jones and Quincy Jones goes,
Speaker:Trist: "Ah, okay.
Speaker:Trist: Got it."
Speaker:Trist: I think at some point before I
Speaker:Trist: knew more of the back story and
Speaker:Trist: hearing some of the origin
Speaker:Trist: stories of some of these things
Speaker:Trist: that came from Michael's head, I
Speaker:Trist: think in my brain, I went the
Speaker:Trist: path of, oh, "Quincy Jones,
Speaker:Trist: musical genius.
Speaker:Trist: Those albums are mostly great because of him.
Speaker:Trist: And Michael was super talented,
Speaker:Trist: and he was able to harness him
Speaker:Trist: and do all these amazing
Speaker:Trist: things."
Speaker:Trist: And I think it's a little more
Speaker:Trist: even or even more slated to
Speaker:Trist: like, "No, Michael had all these
Speaker:Trist: ideas.
Speaker:Trist: It's not like he had like a little bit of a song idea.
Speaker:Trist: And then Quincy made it happen."
Speaker:Trist: It was a little more: Michael just really knew what he wanted
Speaker:Trist: and really had an idea.
Speaker:Trist: And then Quincy again had the connections and the musical
Speaker:Trist: understanding of who to hire, who to bring in, what
Speaker:Trist: instruments to use in what places, where to mix them
Speaker:Trist: between him and the engineers.
Speaker:Trist: so I think it's more of a effort of just getting Michael's
Speaker:Trist: essence into every track because he was so- it was just in him.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, it's fascinating to think
Speaker:Elaine: about the relationship between
Speaker:Elaine: the producer and the artist,
Speaker:Elaine: especially when it comes to
Speaker:Elaine: something as iconic as this
Speaker:Elaine: album.
Speaker:Elaine: I wanted to switch gears a little bit because we were
Speaker:Elaine: talking about recording technology in a previous
Speaker:Elaine: episode, and one of the things that I noticed about this is
Speaker:Elaine: that it for whatever reason, it was a much longer song than your
Speaker:Elaine: typical pop song.
Speaker:Elaine: It's, over five minutes right here.
Speaker:Elaine: And I actually timed some of the
Speaker:Elaine: breakdowns because they were
Speaker:Elaine: extremely long.
Speaker:Elaine: So there are two instrumental breakdowns in this.
Speaker:Elaine: That was almost 45 seconds the first time, which
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: is forever in
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: a track from this era.
Speaker:Elaine: And then later on, you know, the
Speaker:Elaine: second breakdown, that was
Speaker:Elaine: almost 30s.
Speaker:Elaine: So we're
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: talking about, a minute and
Speaker:Elaine: fifteen seconds out of this is
Speaker:Elaine: just instruments.
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: No Michael Jackson, it's just
Speaker:Elaine: the breakdown, which I'm sure
Speaker:Elaine: was absolutely amazing because
Speaker:Elaine: it's like your dance breakdown
Speaker:Elaine: here.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: I could also see where in a live
Speaker:Elaine: performance it would go much,
Speaker:Elaine: much longer because now you have
Speaker:Elaine: these two spaces to really lean
Speaker:Elaine: in.
Speaker:Elaine: But, going back to the whole
Speaker:Elaine: concept of, we're talking about,
Speaker:Elaine: you know, the vinyl that you're
Speaker:Elaine: pressing down.
Speaker:Elaine: How do you rationalize, like the length of this.
Speaker:Elaine: With the time that we have and
Speaker:Elaine: the technology that was
Speaker:Elaine: available.
Speaker:Trist: Well, I think it circles back to
Speaker:Trist: where we started is like, well,
Speaker:Trist: this is probably a little bit of
Speaker:Trist: an answer to why this one wasn't
Speaker:Trist: a single.
Speaker:Trist: Because even if you did, you would have to try to edit this
Speaker:Trist: down, if you were to release it as a single and maybe there were
Speaker:Trist: edits of it, maybe that doesn't have anything to do with it.
Speaker:Trist: But as is, yeah, it's pretty long.
Speaker:Trist: Even though it's not this exact thing, I'll say something that's
Speaker:Trist: that's very different from, songwriting today, or really
Speaker:Trist: even the last ten or twenty years, is what I like to call
Speaker:Trist: the late third verse.
Speaker:Trist: So, so many times in basic great songs, intro, verse, pre-chorus,
Speaker:Trist: chorus, verse, chorus.
Speaker:Trist: And then if maybe a bridge and then.
Speaker:Trist: Chorus, chorus.
Speaker:Trist: Chorus, chorus.
Speaker:Trist: Out.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Trist: Um. And a lot of times I'll forget, because I get so into
Speaker:Trist: "that's the way that so many songs are" that I go back and
Speaker:Trist: listen to some of these Michael Jackson tunes on both of those,
Speaker:Trist: these albums, "Off the Wall" and "Thriller," and right about the
Speaker:Trist: time you're through the second chorus or you're thinking, oh,
Speaker:Trist: it's just going to repeat the chorus and fade out.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, bam!
Speaker:Trist: There's another verse.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, whoa, I forgot that you could do that.
Speaker:Trist: I'm not accustomed to hearing that.
Speaker:Trist: There is a verse again that happens after a whole bunch of
Speaker:Trist: sections where you kind of think we're kind of toward the end and
Speaker:Trist: nope, I'm going to put another verse in here.
Speaker:Elaine: Since we're talking about the the lyrics, as I was taking a
Speaker:Elaine: look at the lyrics, because of course, I was reading through it
Speaker:Elaine: like a poem and trying to figure out what does this mean?
Speaker:Elaine: Some of the things that I go
Speaker:Elaine: through when I'm looking at it
Speaker:Elaine: is all right, who is the
Speaker:Elaine: narrator, who's the narrator
Speaker:Elaine: talking to, and what is the
Speaker:Elaine: nature of what they're talking
Speaker:Elaine: about?
Speaker:Elaine: And so in this case, it was like, okay, we have this
Speaker:Elaine: character who is talking to his honey, and she has certain
Speaker:Elaine: expectations of him, and this song is a response to that.
Speaker:Elaine: So it was an interesting read
Speaker:Elaine: through as I was looking at the
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics and trying to figure out,
Speaker:Elaine: well, what does this song really
Speaker:Elaine: mean and what is he really
Speaker:Elaine: talking about?
Speaker:Elaine: And also like, how does that fit in with the sound and the feel
Speaker:Elaine: of this particular piece?
Speaker:Trist: I had this epiphany.
Speaker:Trist: As you were saying this, it hit me.
Speaker:Trist: Wow.
Speaker:Trist: For me personally, and maybe some of the listeners can can
Speaker:Trist: relate to this, this kind of song, like until you just said
Speaker:Trist: those things, I have never in my hundreds of listens to this ever
Speaker:Trist: considered what the lyrics are.
Speaker:Trist: Not one time.
Speaker:Trist: You just made me realize it's even about a relationship or him
Speaker:Trist: talking to somebody.
Speaker:Trist: I didn't even considered it.
Speaker:Trist: I'm just like, do you hear how cool that horn part is?
Speaker:Trist: They did two different parts.
Speaker:Trist: That's so cool.
Speaker:Trist: And as you listen to this podcast, you might notice as we
Speaker:Trist: go song to song, songs that are like this, I'm almost always
Speaker:Trist: going to be geeking out about how great the drummer is, or how
Speaker:Trist: cool it all works together, or what the pocket is.
Speaker:Trist: So thank you, Elaine.
Speaker:Trist: And that's why there's two of us, not just me doing this.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah,
Speaker:Trist: Um.
Speaker:Elaine: I will one hundred percent say that I am with you on the
Speaker:Elaine: temptation just to listen to the music and not to the words,
Speaker:Elaine: which is exactly why I wrote down all of the words or like
Speaker:Elaine: found it online and tried to figure out what it meant.
Speaker:Trist: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: And, you know, maybe this is a
Speaker:Elaine: challenge for those of us who
Speaker:Elaine: are much more on the production
Speaker:Elaine: side or much more on the
Speaker:Elaine: performance side, that we
Speaker:Elaine: actually stop and look at the
Speaker:Elaine: things that we are singing or
Speaker:Elaine: listening to
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I think the first time I ever truly paid attention to
Speaker:Trist: lyrics and songs was after the first time I ever wrote lyrics
Speaker:Trist: to a song myself.
Speaker:Trist: Like, within that year, I finally, quote unquote heard
Speaker:Trist: lyrics to songs that I had heard over years and years and years.
Speaker:Trist: Oh. Huh!
Speaker:Trist: That's what that song's about.
Speaker:Trist: Because I had to create that on my own.
Speaker:Trist: I finally heard that, you know,
Speaker:Trist: little Red Corvette isn't about
Speaker:Trist: a car.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that that's part of
Speaker:Elaine: the reason why different people
Speaker:Elaine: hear different things in songs
Speaker:Elaine: or enjoy songs in a slightly
Speaker:Elaine: different way.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think you and I are wired
Speaker:Elaine: in very particular ways, as you
Speaker:Elaine: know.
Speaker:Elaine: I've been playing piano since I was six And so I'm much more
Speaker:Elaine: about the musical structure and all that things.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm not listening to the lyrics as well.
Speaker:Elaine: And I also just can't pick out words that well.
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: as I'm looking at them, I have
Speaker:Elaine: to force myself to stop and look
Speaker:Elaine: at them in order to be able to
Speaker:Elaine: appreciate the song for its
Speaker:Elaine: totality.
Speaker:Trist: I'm really glad you mentioned
Speaker:Trist: this because actually, now that
Speaker:Trist: I think about them, It does
Speaker:Trist: really work.
Speaker:Trist: They're not just throwaways.
Speaker:Trist: it really is the vibe of this.
Speaker:Trist: The energy of it is like, man, I'm working day and night to
Speaker:Trist: keep you, etcetera.
Speaker:Trist: So it kind of fits the vibe of the tune of all the things that
Speaker:Trist: I love about it.
Speaker:Trist: So that's cool.
Speaker:Trist: but I had never really even considered what the lyrics were
Speaker:Trist: until you just said that.
Speaker:Trist: So
Speaker:Elaine: Well,
Speaker:Trist: this
Speaker:Elaine: maybe
Speaker:Trist: is
Speaker:Elaine: this
Speaker:Trist: great.
Speaker:Elaine: is a challenge for both of us in the future.
Speaker:Trist: Sounds great.
Speaker:Trist: Very cool.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: So any last thoughts before we move on to our next section?
Speaker:Trist: No, man.
Speaker:Trist: It's just it's great.
Speaker:Trist: I highly recommend.
Speaker:Trist: And I do this once a year about, I just get my good headphones.
Speaker:Trist: I listen to all of "Off the Wall."
Speaker:Trist: The "Off the Wall" album is just
Speaker:Trist: a sonic masterpiece, I think
Speaker:Trist: between his vibe and his energy
Speaker:Trist: and the songwriting and the
Speaker:Trist: production, and almost every
Speaker:Trist: time I hear a string line I
Speaker:Trist: never heard before, or Michael
Speaker:Trist: will vocally like double a
Speaker:Trist: guitar part.
Speaker:Trist: There'll always be things that I
Speaker:Trist: didn't realize were there
Speaker:Trist: before.
Speaker:Trist: And it's a challenge these days with all of our attention so
Speaker:Trist: short, it seems these days it's a challenge to just sit and not
Speaker:Trist: while you're watching a show, not while you're cleaning, not
Speaker:Trist: while you're reading.
Speaker:Trist: Not while you're checking your
Speaker:Trist: emails, but literally only
Speaker:Trist: listening.
Speaker:Trist: Just put on some headphones and listen to this entire album.
Speaker:Trist: And man, it's amazing.
Speaker:Trist: It's like my favorite listen.
Speaker:Elaine: It's interesting to think about this, like you said, from a
Speaker:Elaine: discipline perspective and thinking about how we're
Speaker:Elaine: training our brains.
Speaker:Elaine: And so as we're taking this opportunity to listen to these
Speaker:Elaine: songs, I think as a part of the practice, we are training our
Speaker:Elaine: brains to be more focused, to be more aware of what's happening
Speaker:Elaine: in the moment.
Speaker:Elaine: So thank you very much for your reminder.
Speaker:Trist: Absolutely.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: And with that, we are moving to our next segment, which is.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm. Mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: Yes. The mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: And if you have any questions
Speaker:Elaine: for us, please feel free to
Speaker:Elaine: reach out to us on Instagram or
Speaker:Elaine: on Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: We are @themusiciansloupe,
Speaker:Elaine: L-O-U-P-E, or you can email us
Speaker:Elaine: at themusiciansloupe@gmail.com.
Speaker:Elaine: So this week's mailbag comes from Threads and it is from
Speaker:Elaine: Steff Fleur, who is an artist based out of Borneo, which is an
Speaker:Elaine: island in Malaysia.
Speaker:Elaine: And she writes, "I don't think I could leave my corporate job to
Speaker:Elaine: pursue a full career in music.
Speaker:Elaine: Not because I'm not passionate, But my corporate salary is used
Speaker:Elaine: to angpao the musicians that helped me realize my projects.
Speaker:Elaine: At the end of the day, my
Speaker:Elaine: corporate salary funds my
Speaker:Elaine: musicians.
Speaker:Elaine: Without it, I would be
Speaker:Elaine: journeying this music path a
Speaker:Elaine: little lonelier."
Speaker:Trist: Mm.
Speaker:Elaine: And the phrase that she used in there I had to look up, angpao
Speaker:Elaine: in Malaysian is the equivalent to the Chinese hongbao, which is
Speaker:Elaine: the red envelope.
Speaker:Elaine: So it is slang to mean to pay.
Speaker:Elaine: So it looks
Speaker:Trist: Mm.
Speaker:Elaine: like Steff uses her corporate salary to pay instrumentalists
Speaker:Elaine: or pay band members so that she can continue to make her music.
Speaker:Elaine: And so she sees it as like a source of income to help her to
Speaker:Elaine: build her community.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: So, you know, that leads me to
Speaker:Elaine: the question of what do you
Speaker:Elaine: think the role is that musicians
Speaker:Elaine: with day jobs or corporate jobs
Speaker:Elaine: can have on the larger music
Speaker:Elaine: industry?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, man.
Speaker:Trist: I think the way that those
Speaker:Trist: things work together, usually
Speaker:Trist: starts with what the end goal
Speaker:Trist: is.
Speaker:Trist: So for this musician, she's saying, I need this day job to
Speaker:Trist: fund the music thing that I do.
Speaker:Trist: I could be perceiving this incorrectly, and every, every
Speaker:Trist: situation is unique, of course, but that sounds to me like she
Speaker:Trist: doesn't have the goal of being a career full time musician,
Speaker:Trist: because then the time that she spends making the money to do it
Speaker:Trist: wouldn't be there, Or she doesn't want to tour You see
Speaker:Trist: what I'm saying?
Speaker:Trist: And none of the judgment in any direction.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, oh, well, yeah.
Speaker:Trist: My goal is that I want to keep music in my life.
Speaker:Trist: It costs a lot to do all of those things.
Speaker:Trist: So my job that I normally have might help pay for that.
Speaker:Trist: Then that's a little more symbiotic.
Speaker:Trist: Now, if.
Speaker:Trist: Okay, my goal is I want to tour the world.
Speaker:Trist: I want to be touring three quarters of the year.
Speaker:Trist: I want to go to lots of different countries, and I want
Speaker:Trist: to go all around my country, and I want to take a band with me
Speaker:Trist: and record an album every year and a half.
Speaker:Trist: Like those goals don't fit with,
Speaker:Trist: oh, so I'm going to do that, and
Speaker:Trist: to pay for it, I have this
Speaker:Trist: corporate job.
Speaker:Trist: Like Those don't match up because you don't have the time
Speaker:Trist: to go do all those.
Speaker:Trist: Well, I say, don't try not to be absolutes.
Speaker:Trist: I suppose you could have some kind of corporate job where you
Speaker:Trist: traveled and could be online the few other moments you're awake,
Speaker:Trist: not trying to do music.
Speaker:Trist: it depends on what you have the time for.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes I think people try to do that.
Speaker:Trist: They try to have a particular
Speaker:Trist: goal, but then the way that they
Speaker:Trist: go about it isn't symbiotic with
Speaker:Trist: their goal.
Speaker:Trist: It doesn't match.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I think I have a slightly different perspective on that.
Speaker:Elaine: Part of the reason I say this is
Speaker:Elaine: that you and I both know
Speaker:Elaine: musicians who have been full
Speaker:Elaine: time, but they've also had
Speaker:Elaine: corporate jobs.
Speaker:Elaine: And the reason why they've done
Speaker:Elaine: that is because it's just
Speaker:Elaine: pragmatic.
Speaker:Elaine: I happen to live in the San Francisco Bay area, oh man, it's
Speaker:Elaine: like expensive to live here.
Speaker:Elaine: And so the people who have lived
Speaker:Elaine: in San Francisco and tried to
Speaker:Elaine: make a living out of their art
Speaker:Elaine: have had to take other jobs in
Speaker:Elaine: order to be able to supplement
Speaker:Elaine: it.
Speaker:Elaine: So I think that there's, maybe
Speaker:Elaine: more of a spectrum in there, of
Speaker:Elaine: what the intent of the corporate
Speaker:Elaine: job is.
Speaker:Elaine: Part of the reason I brought
Speaker:Elaine: this up is that even if you're
Speaker:Elaine: going to be, super serious about
Speaker:Elaine: your work, there is a transition
Speaker:Elaine: point, right?
Speaker:Elaine: I think about people who have
Speaker:Elaine: side hustles, side gigs of all
Speaker:Elaine: sorts of types, whether it's in
Speaker:Elaine: art or consulting or whatever
Speaker:Elaine: types of things, they generally
Speaker:Elaine: will work a job while they were
Speaker:Elaine: standing up, their second work,
Speaker:Elaine: their
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: second job and thinking about, okay, you know, at what point in
Speaker:Elaine: time does it shift gears into The other thing is going to be
Speaker:Elaine: my primary thing.
Speaker:Elaine: And then, you know, the corporate
Speaker:Trist: Right,
Speaker:Elaine: thing might be a side thing.
Speaker:Trist: right.
Speaker:Elaine: And, you know, one of the
Speaker:Elaine: challenges with music in
Speaker:Elaine: particular is that it is very
Speaker:Elaine: challenging to make it a
Speaker:Elaine: sustainable living.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think you and I both know
Speaker:Elaine: this, where there's a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: people who are unwilling to pay
Speaker:Elaine: for music.
Speaker:Elaine: And it's like, oh, let's just do things for exposure.
Speaker:Elaine: And at a certain point in time, you just have to eat.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I think that there is something to be said about, hey,
Speaker:Elaine: I'm going to make music and make high quality music, and I'm
Speaker:Elaine: going to feed into the industry because I will continue to make
Speaker:Elaine: money and hire musicians so that we are continuing this
Speaker:Elaine: environment of like, people should be paid for their music.
Speaker:Elaine: And I would love to hear more people who are, doing that, like
Speaker:Elaine: working their corporate jobs and actively making music as well,
Speaker:Elaine: just so that we have more space for the people who want to make
Speaker:Elaine: it full time.
Speaker:Trist: And to me that is that's all different.
Speaker:Trist: Um, again, with the if the goal
Speaker:Trist: would still be to the full time
Speaker:Trist: thing.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, you could have the corporate job for a while while
Speaker:Trist: you're building up to that.
Speaker:Trist: So when I co-founded my a cappella group, m-pact in 1995.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, when we started, it wasn't
Speaker:Trist: like, okay, we're full time
Speaker:Trist: musicians.
Speaker:Trist: You didn't just start that, all
Speaker:Trist: of us had, full time jobs, and
Speaker:Trist: then it was slowly going away
Speaker:Trist: from them.
Speaker:Trist: That sounds different from what this is.
Speaker:Trist: This is like I have this corporate job.
Speaker:Trist: I couldn't leave it to pursue a career in music, is
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: what she was saying.
Speaker:Trist: So that's
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: that's just and again, that's
Speaker:Trist: what works for the level of
Speaker:Trist: participation in music that she
Speaker:Trist: wants.
Speaker:Trist: Like they're commensurate.
Speaker:Trist: They work together.
Speaker:Trist: so it's not that you couldn't
Speaker:Trist: have this and have that goal,
Speaker:Trist: it's just that attaining that
Speaker:Trist: goal includes getting rid of the
Speaker:Trist: job you got that sustained you
Speaker:Trist: while you were on your way
Speaker:Trist: there.
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. I could see that I'm also
Speaker:Elaine: and I think going back to the
Speaker:Elaine: original conversation that you
Speaker:Elaine: and I had, as we're thinking
Speaker:Elaine: about what should the end goal
Speaker:Elaine: be, I think we have to go back
Speaker:Elaine: to value statements about like,
Speaker:Elaine: is it sufficient to live this
Speaker:Elaine: life where you are an excellent
Speaker:Elaine: musician and working a corporate
Speaker:Elaine: job?
Speaker:Elaine: but I think that there is maybe
Speaker:Elaine: a false equivalence that a lot
Speaker:Elaine: of people have that if you don't
Speaker:Elaine: leave your corporate job and
Speaker:Elaine: pursue music, therefore you must
Speaker:Elaine: be less passionate or less
Speaker:Elaine: qualified
Speaker:Trist: Uh,
Speaker:Elaine: or
Speaker:Trist: right.
Speaker:Elaine: less good about that.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that that's something that, I do want to make sure
Speaker:Elaine: that everyone pressure tests because There are a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: talented people out there who we both know who are just excellent
Speaker:Elaine: musicians, and they're working day jobs, and sometimes it's
Speaker:Elaine: pragmatic and sometimes they want that level of stability.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know what it is, but I
Speaker:Elaine: just want to reinforce that we
Speaker:Elaine: don't necessarily need to think
Speaker:Elaine: that full time means that you're
Speaker:Elaine: awesome and that that should be
Speaker:Elaine: the goal that everyone should be
Speaker:Elaine: pursuing.
Speaker:Trist: Totally true.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. It's absolutely unique to everyone.
Speaker:Trist: Everyone has different, needs for, the way that their life
Speaker:Trist: goes, their relationships, their families, what fits into what
Speaker:Trist: their goals are.
Speaker:Trist: It's important to just at least
Speaker:Trist: have those again be where they
Speaker:Trist: can function together, not have
Speaker:Trist: unrealistic goal and then way of
Speaker:Trist: achieving it.
Speaker:Trist: that's all that I hear there.
Speaker:Trist: So to me again I hear that this
Speaker:Trist: musician you talked about, it
Speaker:Trist: sounds to me like she's content
Speaker:Trist: with that.
Speaker:Trist: it sounds like she likes the balance of it.
Speaker:Trist: And some people work better that way.
Speaker:Trist: And sometimes maybe their musicianship is better because
Speaker:Trist: they're more balanced and, they don't feel like their whole life
Speaker:Trist: is hanging on whether this next thing they do is successful or
Speaker:Trist: not, etc. who knows?
Speaker:Elaine: yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: So any last thoughts about this before we move on, Trist?
Speaker:Trist: I think that's it.
Speaker:Trist: Another great question.
Speaker:Trist: Elaine.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, with that, we're going to wrap up for this week.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. Let us know what you think about this tune.
Speaker:Trist: And maybe, you know, when you
Speaker:Trist: first heard it or what you
Speaker:Trist: thought about it, or what your
Speaker:Trist: favorite Michael Jackson funky
Speaker:Trist: tune is.
Speaker:Trist: Stuff like that.
Speaker:Trist: Let us know.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: And with that, see you next time.
Speaker:Trist: Bye.
Speaker:Trist: Um, is that making sense?
Speaker:Elaine: No.
Speaker:Trist: Um,
Speaker:Elaine: can you describe it again?
Speaker:Trist: I always sound old men get off my lawn ish when I do this,
Speaker:Elaine: let me try that again.
Speaker:Trist: episode, by the way, should be called "Hocket and Pocket."
Speaker:Trist: I just decided,
Speaker:Elaine: before we do that, I gotta pour myself some more tea.
Speaker:Trist: Man. Forever ago.
