Latin rhythms, song structure, and a superstition - An Olive Tree (Basia)
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAgbvUL8Ap4
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/3CiONr7T1221WXvNDCS4jh?si=1dea603406ec4a40
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/be/song/an-olive-tree/457233483
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B00138H6BO?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_MWTDQIz8Ts7CyqmMuiQGflwhR&trackAsin=B00138EFVS
Other links
- TED Radio Hour interview with David Byrne - https://www.npr.org/transcripts/894686165
Key takeaways
- Trist and Elaine discuss Basia’s jazz-pop sound, her use of Latin-inspired rhythms, and the influence of language in her song “An Olive Tree.”
- The song’s unconventional structure, featuring distinct movements and varied rhythms, challenges traditional expectations of musical composition and highlights the flexibility of music
- In the Mailbag segment, Elaine and Trist explore how physical spaces, such as churches, jazz clubs, and concert halls, shape the type of music created and performed, citing examples like Gregorian chants and jazz ensembles
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: This week we have, what might be our first Polish singer.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, yeah, I think
Speaker:Trist: Our
Speaker:Elaine: so.
Speaker:Trist: first Polish musician, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker:Trist: Pretty soon we're gonna have too many of these episodes, and I'm
Speaker:Trist: going to say this is our first "something," and it will
Speaker:Trist: definitely be a lie.
Speaker:Trist: So apologies in advance when that happens.
Speaker:Trist: It might also be our first one name person.
Speaker:Trist: No, it's not our first Madonna song.
Speaker:Trist: It's not our first Prince song.
Speaker:Trist: It's from Basia.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Trist: Do you remember
Speaker:Elaine: I haven't
Speaker:Trist: Basia?
Speaker:Elaine: heard of this person.
Speaker:Trist: Okay, so had kind of a fairly decent hit in the 80s here in
Speaker:Trist: the United States.
Speaker:Trist: Kind of a jazz pop singer, Latin
Speaker:Trist: inspired rhythms often, singing
Speaker:Trist: in English every once in a
Speaker:Trist: while.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe some Polish would sneak in there.
Speaker:Trist: But we do have a song from her called "An Olive Tree."
Speaker:Elaine: Ooh. Okay. Interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: The way that you set this up, I
Speaker:Elaine: think there are a lot of really
Speaker:Elaine: interesting things about this
Speaker:Elaine: song.
Speaker:Trist: A lot of questions.
Speaker:Elaine: A lot of questions.
Speaker:Elaine: Definitely a lot of questions.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we get into this, can
Speaker:Elaine: you share a little bit about how
Speaker:Elaine: we should be listening to music
Speaker:Elaine: as a part of The Musician's
Speaker:Elaine: Loupe?
Speaker:Trist: Well, we at The Musician's Loupe like to take a close look at
Speaker:Trist: what's happening in the music and listen closely.
Speaker:Trist: So if you are able, improve your
Speaker:Trist: listening environment if you
Speaker:Trist: can.
Speaker:Trist: If not, we're just glad to have
Speaker:Trist: you and keep listening and enjoy
Speaker:Trist: this tune and we'll talk about
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: So we are going to go ahead and
Speaker:Elaine: leave the links to the song in
Speaker:Elaine: the show notes, and we'll be
Speaker:Elaine: right back.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay,
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: that was quite an experience.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know exactly what I expected, but what we got was
Speaker:Elaine: definitely not it.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. It's interesting, um, with these tunes you see a pattern.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes I like to pick the uh, interesting, meter and mixed and
Speaker:Trist: changing meter tunes.
Speaker:Trist: I just find those fascinating just because they aren't as
Speaker:Trist: typical, aren't as normal, interesting kind of amalgam of
Speaker:Trist: different styles and flavors and come out with a, I don't know, a
Speaker:Trist: very fun, listenable tune.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. Was this the one that you were referring to that made it
Speaker:Elaine: big in the United States, or was this another part of her
Speaker:Trist: Oh,
Speaker:Elaine: discography?
Speaker:Trist: no. This was, again, as a theme you might get.
Speaker:Trist: She had a bigger hit called "Time and Tide," and this is two
Speaker:Trist: albums after that.
Speaker:Trist: So probably her least successful album in the States.
Speaker:Trist: I think it did pretty well in some other countries.
Speaker:Trist: I think it might have been the last one on the deal.
Speaker:Trist: I think she- this was on Sony.
Speaker:Trist: And the first one did so well
Speaker:Trist: that she lasted for at least two
Speaker:Trist: more albums.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. And I think that what I heard out of this is exactly
Speaker:Elaine: what you had mentioned.
Speaker:Elaine: There was this whole different
Speaker:Elaine: set of rhythms, and certainly at
Speaker:Elaine: the very beginning, it sounded
Speaker:Elaine: like a bossa nova, and then into
Speaker:Elaine: another one of the Latin
Speaker:Elaine: rhythms, kind of in the very
Speaker:Elaine: last third of the song or so,
Speaker:Elaine: and
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: I couldn't exactly tell.
Speaker:Elaine: Of course it went back to, oh my goodness, how come I can't tell?
Speaker:Elaine: And so I know that we've talked about this in previous episodes
Speaker:Elaine: where I became suddenly aware of the fact that I wasn't as
Speaker:Elaine: familiar with a particular style of music as I thought it was.
Speaker:Elaine: And so
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: for this particular one, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, I'd grown up with a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: Latin rhythms, but not to the
Speaker:Elaine: point where I could distinguish
Speaker:Elaine: between them.
Speaker:Elaine: It was more like,
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: oh, I know that this is coming from somewhere in Central or
Speaker:Elaine: South America, and
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: they're singing in Spanish, and I understand Spanish.
Speaker:Elaine: And so that was something that was a little more humbling for
Speaker:Elaine: me to come to, was the recognition that I didn't know
Speaker:Elaine: all of these different things.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm like, okay, one rhythm to another.
Speaker:Elaine: It was very distinct.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm pretty sure the first one was bossa nova.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm not sure about the second one.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: I'm in the same boat.
Speaker:Trist: I don't claim to really have a
Speaker:Trist: great hold on all of my
Speaker:Trist: variations of different Latin
Speaker:Trist: rhythms.
Speaker:Trist: But then even in a song like this, I'm assuming aficionados
Speaker:Trist: of those things, they even use them as a starting point, like,
Speaker:Trist: oh, this is like a merengue, except for it sounds like
Speaker:Trist: they're doing this different.
Speaker:Trist: There's always variations, like
Speaker:Trist: watered down versions of music
Speaker:Trist: that we've heard, and it doesn't
Speaker:Trist: make it any less cool or
Speaker:Trist: whatever.
Speaker:Trist: It's just interesting how it fuses with the other music that,
Speaker:Trist: she and the musicians, have heard and put together.
Speaker:Trist: And it comes out like this.
Speaker:Trist: That's what we are.
Speaker:Trist: We're kind of an amalgam of our listening and our experiences
Speaker:Trist: and our tastes.
Speaker:Trist: And this one, it really changes.
Speaker:Trist: It's not even one thing.
Speaker:Trist: Every section has its own little vibe, which I enjoy.
Speaker:Trist: I'd forgotten, at the front, it's not rubato.
Speaker:Trist: It has a tempo, but then it just
Speaker:Trist: stops, and then a whole new
Speaker:Trist: tempo starts.
Speaker:Trist: It's not half time or half time feel or double time or double
Speaker:Trist: time feel of it.
Speaker:Trist: no, it's just, "Here's this little intro, and then a brand
Speaker:Trist: new tempo!" So that's interesting as well.
Speaker:Elaine: One of the things that we were
Speaker:Elaine: talking about in a previous
Speaker:Elaine: episode was the concept of
Speaker:Elaine: movements.
Speaker:Elaine: So far we've heard a couple of
Speaker:Elaine: different tracks that have had
Speaker:Elaine: very distinct movements in them,
Speaker:Elaine: where one part is very distinct
Speaker:Elaine: from another part is very
Speaker:Elaine: distinct from a third, and all
Speaker:Elaine: of them fit together in the same
Speaker:Elaine: song.
Speaker:Elaine: So it is interesting to think about how this also fits into
Speaker:Elaine: that same paradigm.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, that is true.
Speaker:Trist: It feels a little broader than just like, okay, now this is the
Speaker:Trist: bridge, this is the chorus.
Speaker:Trist: It feels bigger than just a little section.
Speaker:Trist: It is almost like a little movement.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. So let's get focused a little bit more about the song.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you tell us more about what you were interested in
Speaker:Elaine: highlighting as a part of the song when you brought it up?
Speaker:Trist: I think where we started is really the thing for me.
Speaker:Trist: It's just the different feels.
Speaker:Trist: And yet, I think the key to anything like this that has
Speaker:Trist: different time signatures and different feels throughout is to
Speaker:Trist: not have those feel forced.
Speaker:Trist: Like the goal wasn't, "Hey,
Speaker:Trist: let's write this song and put a
Speaker:Trist: bunch of different feelings in
Speaker:Trist: different sections."
Speaker:Trist: It's just, how does the music come to you?
Speaker:Trist: What is the lyric about?
Speaker:Trist: Where do we go?
Speaker:Trist: And it feels super natural.
Speaker:Trist: When you're a musician, I think
Speaker:Trist: we again discussed this before,
Speaker:Trist: because you want to participate,
Speaker:Trist: right away, you're trying to
Speaker:Trist: sort out, "Okay, how is this
Speaker:Trist: divided?
Speaker:Trist: What is the feel?
Speaker:Trist: How does this go?
Speaker:Trist: And oh, new section!
Speaker:Trist: Now what are we- Oh now it's just in this time signature."
Speaker:Trist: So you think of that right away.
Speaker:Trist: But I think for me, right away rather than trying to figure it
Speaker:Trist: out, I just like listening to how it flows from one thing to
Speaker:Trist: the next, and then trying to sort out, "Ooh, if I had to play
Speaker:Trist: this music with them, would I know where to be?"
Speaker:Elaine: I think even separate from that,
Speaker:Elaine: what you were just sharing has
Speaker:Elaine: made me reflect a little bit
Speaker:Elaine: about my own relationship with
Speaker:Elaine: structure.
Speaker:Elaine: A lot of us grow up with the
Speaker:Elaine: sense of, well, music is in the
Speaker:Elaine: structure.
Speaker:Elaine: And it's highly cultural.
Speaker:Elaine: Thinking about, hey, pop music is: first verse, chorus, second
Speaker:Elaine: verse, chorus, maybe repetition of a chorus, bridge, chorus,
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: chorus, outro.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that there is
Speaker:Elaine: something about our experience
Speaker:Elaine: here in The Musician's Loupe
Speaker:Elaine: which is really challenging
Speaker:Elaine: that.
Speaker:Elaine: And I also hearken back to my
Speaker:Elaine: own experience as a classical
Speaker:Elaine: musician and studying all sorts
Speaker:Elaine: of different forms, whether it's
Speaker:Elaine: the Mass form or the sonata form
Speaker:Elaine: or a concerto, like all sorts of
Speaker:Elaine: different classical
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: forms that we're familiar with.
Speaker:Elaine: So I think as we're listening to this, I am challenged by the
Speaker:Elaine: thought that we actually have quite a bit more flexibility in
Speaker:Elaine: music than we really think.
Speaker:Elaine: And this type of creativity that we're hearing from these various
Speaker:Elaine: artists here on The Musician's Loupe I think is really
Speaker:Elaine: challenging some of those preconceptions that we have.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I guess I do tend to
Speaker:Trist: choose these kinds of things
Speaker:Trist: that aren't as conventional
Speaker:Trist: that, exactly what you were just
Speaker:Trist: saying, that don't just fit into
Speaker:Trist: a particular mold of structure
Speaker:Trist: and form.
Speaker:Trist: That's probably the part of the interest in this one as well.
Speaker:Elaine: And yes, even the ones that
Speaker:Elaine: you've chosen that have been
Speaker:Elaine: conventional, like the John
Speaker:Elaine: Mayer track that we did a few
Speaker:Elaine: episodes ago.
Speaker:Elaine: It was just interesting to think about, like, what is our
Speaker:Elaine: relationship with these types of structures and how come we kind
Speaker:Elaine: of expect that and we're so surprised when we don't get it?
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I feel like in this one,
Speaker:Trist: there's also not quite the
Speaker:Trist: relationship with the lyric to
Speaker:Trist: me.
Speaker:Trist: Like, I think the lyrics are interesting and kind of fun.
Speaker:Trist: I don't feel like there's a lot
Speaker:Trist: of, "Oh, these lyrics feel like
Speaker:Trist: this particular music
Speaker:Trist: necessarily.
Speaker:Trist: I feel like this music is really fun and interesting.
Speaker:Trist: Even if this whole thing was an instrumental, I would enjoy the
Speaker:Trist: musicality of it.
Speaker:Trist: This happens to be a lyrics that fit.
Speaker:Trist: I feel like you could almost
Speaker:Trist: write other lyrics in this same
Speaker:Trist: thing, and it would feel like
Speaker:Trist: they were intended to be
Speaker:Trist: together.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned the lyrics because I
Speaker:Elaine: was looking at the lyrics trying to figure out, oh, is there some
Speaker:Elaine: kind of a theme?
Speaker:Elaine: They're kind of fun.
Speaker:Elaine: And they also sound like they were written by a non-native
Speaker:Elaine: English speaker in just some of the grammatical forms that I'm
Speaker:Elaine: seeing in here.
Speaker:Elaine: So in some ways, it's almost like a translated song where it
Speaker:Elaine: feels like someone wrote the song in one language and then
Speaker:Elaine: translated it over into English to sing it in that.
Speaker:Trist: It's interesting that that can come out even with someone who
Speaker:Trist: might be familiar with English for a long time, but like you
Speaker:Trist: said, even though it's not her native language, it's not like
Speaker:Trist: it's brand new either.
Speaker:Trist: But little things can peek out.
Speaker:Trist: Even someone who's fairly fluent in English, if it's not their
Speaker:Trist: first language, there are just little things that can stand out
Speaker:Trist: that maybe native speaker wouldn't do, which I think makes
Speaker:Trist: it even more interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I think it has a little bit of charm to it because,
Speaker:Elaine: she's singing with a little bit of an accent.
Speaker:Elaine: She introduces the Polish
Speaker:Elaine: section, which I thought was
Speaker:Elaine: interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: And, she's expressing herself in
Speaker:Elaine: a language that is not her heart
Speaker:Elaine: language.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that's amazing.
Speaker:Elaine: As someone who speaks multiple languages, it is really
Speaker:Elaine: challenging to do that.
Speaker:Elaine: I mean, for me, English is my first language, but I also speak
Speaker:Elaine: three other languages, some of them more fluently than others.
Speaker:Elaine: So as I think about how do I
Speaker:Elaine: express myself in some of these
Speaker:Elaine: other languages, I think that
Speaker:Elaine: she does better in English than
Speaker:Elaine: I do in some of these other
Speaker:Elaine: languages.
Speaker:Elaine: So I'm
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: really impressed by this.
Speaker:Elaine: And at the same time, it kind of
Speaker:Elaine: begs the question of how
Speaker:Elaine: coherent these lyrics need to
Speaker:Elaine: be.
Speaker:Elaine: And also it's, I don't know, just it's is it a fun topic?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it a serious topic?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it meaningful?
Speaker:Elaine: And do lyrics need to have that type of relationship to be a
Speaker:Elaine: part of a great song?
Speaker:Trist: We've covered some songs where the essence is the lyric and the
Speaker:Trist: music is almost secondary to how strong the lyric is.
Speaker:Trist: And sometimes it's not as deep.
Speaker:Trist: It's just kind of helping carry the music.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, I think she does mention
Speaker:Elaine: this and I'm looking at the
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics again.
Speaker:Elaine: In the first verse that we hear,
Speaker:Elaine: so this is something in the
Speaker:Elaine: first bossa nova ish section,
Speaker:Elaine: where it's just a conversation
Speaker:Elaine: that she had with a good friend
Speaker:Elaine: of hers and talking about her
Speaker:Elaine: friend saying, oh, if you hug an
Speaker:Elaine: olive tree, your dreams will
Speaker:Elaine: come true.
Speaker:Elaine: So this little cultural superstition that her friend
Speaker:Elaine: introduces to her is the topic of this song.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I think that there is
Speaker:Elaine: something in there that might be
Speaker:Elaine: just a play around her thoughts
Speaker:Elaine: about this cultural superstition
Speaker:Elaine: and oh, like, why, why am I
Speaker:Elaine: doing this?
Speaker:Elaine: Why
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: would people do this?
Speaker:Elaine: I feel like she
Speaker:Trist: Yeah,
Speaker:Elaine: has maybe
Speaker:Trist: I like
Speaker:Elaine: a
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Elaine: similar type of confusion that
Speaker:Elaine: we do with just the topic
Speaker:Elaine: itself.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: I think like most things like this old tales about.
Speaker:Trist: "Oh, well, you know, if you do
Speaker:Trist: this, it brings good luck or
Speaker:Trist: don't do that or you have bad
Speaker:Trist: luck."
Speaker:Trist: I think all of us at some point have had something like this
Speaker:Trist: where she kind of makes fun, like, she claims that dreams
Speaker:Trist: would come true?
Speaker:Trist: Like, "Can a plant be in any way that beneficial to me?" Almost
Speaker:Trist: kind of skeptical.
Speaker:Trist: And then when you want something
Speaker:Trist: so badly, you're like, well,
Speaker:Trist: okay.
Speaker:Trist: I mean, maybe it does work.
Speaker:Trist: Let's just try it anyway.
Speaker:Trist: I was sitting there doubting this thing my friend said.
Speaker:Trist: And now, a month later, well, sure.
Speaker:Trist: Like, you talk yourself into it.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, and the pre-chorus is, or
Speaker:Elaine: what I marked as pre-chorus is,
Speaker:Elaine: she talks about herself as a
Speaker:Elaine: silly Polish girl in Nice
Speaker:Elaine: embracing trees, wishing for
Speaker:Elaine: you.
Speaker:Elaine: and later on, there's this reference to "some olive branch
Speaker:Elaine: must have heard my desperate heart because I wear the crown,
Speaker:Elaine: as so do you."
Speaker:Elaine: And I wasn't entirely sure what
Speaker:Elaine: that meant in terms of the olive
Speaker:Elaine: crown.
Speaker:Elaine: Is it a marriage thing?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it, you know, a sort of like olive wreath?
Speaker:Elaine: As in, we've won some kind of prize?
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know, it
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: was hard for me to look into this.
Speaker:Elaine: I think part of it is my lack of cultural understanding of what
Speaker:Elaine: she's referencing, and
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't necessarily ascribe it to her lack so much as my lack
Speaker:Elaine: as a listener.
Speaker:Trist: Sure. As we're talking through this, I've had that experience
Speaker:Trist: myself where you're, like, kind of roll your eyes.
Speaker:Trist: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Trist: This old tale about how this
Speaker:Trist: will happen, but eventually
Speaker:Trist: like, well, hey, I want to think it's
Speaker:Trist: bad enough, it can't hurt, right?
Speaker:Trist: It's
Speaker:Trist: not going to make it worse. Want to
Speaker:Trist: do these things that make ourselves believe that because we
Speaker:Trist: did this one thing that was completely unrelated, is the
Speaker:Trist: reason that my wish happened the way I wanted.
Speaker:Elaine: One fun little thing: I did run
Speaker:Elaine: the Polish in the middle through
Speaker:Elaine: Google Translate, and it said
Speaker:Elaine: "the olive tree can fulfill your
Speaker:Elaine: dreams."
Speaker:Elaine: So I think it was just a fun little counterpart to it.
Speaker:Elaine: And I know that when we did the
Speaker:Elaine: Paul Simon track with the South
Speaker:Elaine: African lyrics in isiZulu and
Speaker:Elaine: isiXhosa, that that really was a
Speaker:Elaine: good counterpoint.
Speaker:Elaine: I just found it interesting to think about what these
Speaker:Elaine: translated lyrics mean and how they complement the song.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I was glad we dug into
Speaker:Trist: this one because I had never
Speaker:Trist: really dug into the lyrics, as
Speaker:Trist: much as I've always enjoyed this
Speaker:Trist: one.
Speaker:Trist: Very cool.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, let's talk a little bit about the recording.
Speaker:Elaine: What did you hear in the
Speaker:Elaine: recording that was interesting
Speaker:Elaine: to you?
Speaker:Trist: I like the different textures in the different sections.
Speaker:Trist: So as we had different sections, had different vibes.
Speaker:Trist: So she had some different, like overdubbing of vocals, some
Speaker:Trist: counter lines in places.
Speaker:Trist: the unison bright chorus.
Speaker:Trist: It's very familiar in kind of a
Speaker:Trist: lot of Brazilian music, which
Speaker:Trist: the wordless.
Speaker:Trist: La da da da da da da da.
Speaker:Trist: That was really cool.
Speaker:Elaine: Something that you just mentioned reminded me of the
Speaker:Elaine: relationship that we have to Brazilian music and just the
Speaker:Elaine: type of Brazilian music that has bubbled to the top of our
Speaker:Elaine: consciousness as jazz musicians.
Speaker:Elaine: And it has to do with the texture of the voice.
Speaker:Elaine: I think a lot of Stan Getz and
Speaker:Elaine: Astrud Gilberto and some of the
Speaker:Elaine: other people that we have heard
Speaker:Elaine: in that genre of bossa nova
Speaker:Elaine: really have softer, huskier
Speaker:Elaine: voices.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that is something
Speaker:Elaine: that we hear in this track a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: That same quality of voice, it
Speaker:Elaine: is very different, I think, than
Speaker:Elaine: some of the voices that we are
Speaker:Elaine: hearing nowadays in pop music,
Speaker:Elaine: where it's much more bright and
Speaker:Elaine: brassy.
Speaker:Elaine: I'd say probably more along the
Speaker:Elaine: lines of piercing tones in terms
Speaker:Elaine: of the quality of voices that we
Speaker:Elaine: elevate here in the United
Speaker:Elaine: States.
Speaker:Elaine: Is that something that you heard
Speaker:Elaine: in terms of the quality of her
Speaker:Elaine: voice versus the other singers
Speaker:Elaine: that we know from this typical
Speaker:Elaine: genre?
Speaker:Trist: Mm. I hadn't really thought about that, mostly because I
Speaker:Trist: guess I just think of her as sounding like Basia because I
Speaker:Trist: know of her other songs.
Speaker:Trist: so that combination of where she's from, being Polish
Speaker:Trist: speaking English, singing in English, and kind of having
Speaker:Trist: again, some sensibilities through her career of jazz and
Speaker:Trist: pop music, also influenced by bossa nova, etc.. So yeah, I
Speaker:Trist: hear that in her.
Speaker:Trist: All of those things kind of play into what her sound is.
Speaker:Elaine: Hmm. Yeah. Just something for us to think about, especially as we
Speaker:Elaine: are contemplating and confronting our own cultural
Speaker:Elaine: biases when it comes to music.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, Trist, any last thoughts before we wrap up?
Speaker:Trist: No. Just once again, if there's an artist that you like or knew
Speaker:Trist: some big hits from, it's always interesting to check out more
Speaker:Trist: work from them as they progress in their musical journey.
Speaker:Trist: After the hits, as it were.
Speaker:Trist: That's been a little theme of
Speaker:Trist: the podcast, not intentionally,
Speaker:Trist: but as we do it, I'm realizing
Speaker:Trist: that so many of these things are
Speaker:Trist: yep, here's this big artist that
Speaker:Trist: had a pretty big hit and then
Speaker:Trist: two, three, four, five albums
Speaker:Trist: later, there's this song that I
Speaker:Trist: love that I picked that a lot of
Speaker:Trist: people hadn't ever heard just
Speaker:Trist: because they only knew the
Speaker:Trist: earlier things.
Speaker:Trist: So anyway, just a continuing, suggestion to check out artists.
Speaker:Trist: If you liked them at one point, maybe you will still like them
Speaker:Trist: again ten years later.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe they got to do more of what they wanted to do and be a
Speaker:Trist: little more free to experiment.
Speaker:Elaine: Thanks for introducing this.
Speaker:Elaine: This was a super fun track.
Speaker:Elaine: And with that, let's transition to our next segment, which is.
Speaker:Trist: Mail bag, mail bag.
Speaker:Trist: Mail bag.
Speaker:Trist: Mail bag.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: And this mailbag entry is from a friend on Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: So shout out to David Ryan for sending this question in.
Speaker:Elaine: So one of the things that we've been doing on Threads has been
Speaker:Elaine: posting a lot of thought questions relating to that
Speaker:Elaine: particular week's episode.
Speaker:Elaine: And in a recent week, we had posted about how recording
Speaker:Elaine: technology has changed our relationship to music and our
Speaker:Elaine: relationship to creating music.
Speaker:Elaine: David had brought up an
Speaker:Elaine: interesting thought from David
Speaker:Elaine: Byrne, from Talking Heads, and
Speaker:Elaine: he had actually shared in a
Speaker:Elaine: recent Ted Radio Hour about the
Speaker:Elaine: relationship between space and
Speaker:Elaine: music and thinking about how the
Speaker:Elaine: different spaces that were
Speaker:Elaine: created at particular times
Speaker:Elaine: influenced how music was written
Speaker:Elaine: and created.
Speaker:Elaine: So I'm going to go ahead and leave the link to the Ted Radio
Speaker:Elaine: Hour in our show notes.
Speaker:Elaine: One thing that stuck out to me as a part of the transcript was
Speaker:Elaine: the concept of Gregorian chant and how the churches in that
Speaker:Elaine: time, because of the echo, would be able to maintain the same
Speaker:Elaine: chord for quite some time.
Speaker:Elaine: So Gregorian chants all lived
Speaker:Elaine: within the same mode, primarily
Speaker:Elaine: because you could play around
Speaker:Elaine: with the overtones that are
Speaker:Elaine: hanging around in the space just
Speaker:Elaine: because the space echoed so
Speaker:Elaine: much.
Speaker:Elaine: And so David Byrne made this statement that because of that
Speaker:Elaine: echo, Gregorian chant was written in that particular way.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I just thought that was an interesting concept of how
Speaker:Elaine: space shaped the music that was created for those spaces.
Speaker:Elaine: So I'm interested in your take
Speaker:Elaine: on the relationship between
Speaker:Elaine: space and the type of music that
Speaker:Elaine: was made for that space, or the
Speaker:Elaine: type of music that is made in
Speaker:Elaine: that space.
Speaker:Trist: Interesting. I guess I never
Speaker:Trist: thought about the space it's
Speaker:Trist: created in.
Speaker:Trist: But I think it's similar to
Speaker:Trist: maybe when we've talked before
Speaker:Trist: about, the technology that
Speaker:Trist: exists.
Speaker:Trist: In terms of, the kind of sonic
Speaker:Trist: reproduction that you get when
Speaker:Trist: you record.
Speaker:Trist: As the availability of more frequencies and the sound
Speaker:Trist: expanded, you know, in the late 80s with, the bigger, low end
Speaker:Trist: sounds of recordings of R&B and pop music and hip hop and rap
Speaker:Trist: because you're able to reproduce those with CDs, and with club
Speaker:Trist: vinyl being on 45 r.p.m., but on a larger, 12" record.
Speaker:Trist: But because of those things influencing it, I guess it makes
Speaker:Trist: perfect sense that, the space, the difference between being in
Speaker:Trist: a big acoustic concert hall or a church, that would matter.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, that makes sense that they
Speaker:Trist: wouldn't be able to change modes
Speaker:Trist: very much, because even if they
Speaker:Trist: wanted to, now all of a sudden
Speaker:Trist: those new notes would clash with
Speaker:Trist: the ones ringing in the
Speaker:Trist: cathedral.
Speaker:Trist: Something I never really thought about, but it does make sense.
Speaker:Trist: Jazz music played in like a smaller jazz club.
Speaker:Trist: The way that that music is played feels more intimate.
Speaker:Trist: It feels more like a smaller collective of people.
Speaker:Elaine: Let me add in one other thing.
Speaker:Elaine: You were just talking about jazz clubs.
Speaker:Elaine: And when you mentioned the more
Speaker:Elaine: intimate spaces, one of the
Speaker:Elaine: things that came to mind was
Speaker:Elaine: mutes because with horns it's
Speaker:Elaine: such a loud instrument that in
Speaker:Elaine: order to play in these more
Speaker:Elaine: intimate spaces, you either
Speaker:Elaine: blast people away or you play
Speaker:Elaine: with mute.
Speaker:Elaine: And so we think about the role
Speaker:Elaine: of the Harmon mute and that very
Speaker:Elaine: specific, tinny sound that the
Speaker:Elaine: Harmon mute has, as well as more
Speaker:Elaine: the wahs that you have with
Speaker:Elaine: managing the way that the mute
Speaker:Elaine: is surfaced.
Speaker:Elaine: I wonder how much of that has to do with the spaces that people
Speaker:Elaine: are performing in, whether it was a speakeasy or some of these
Speaker:Elaine: smaller clubs that that people had access to.
Speaker:Trist: Hm. Yeah, I suppose that's possible.
Speaker:Trist: I guess I only put those in the
Speaker:Trist: classification of tone color and
Speaker:Trist: conscious choice of like, oh I
Speaker:Trist: want this section to be
Speaker:Trist: different.
Speaker:Trist: So I'm going to add this different kind of mute.
Speaker:Trist: But I could see a possibility where that was needed.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah I never thought about it that way.
Speaker:Elaine: So let me continue reading what our friend David has written in
Speaker:Elaine: his Threads post.
Speaker:Elaine: "Now we make any and all music in often abstracted or virtual
Speaker:Elaine: settings in the box.
Speaker:Elaine: We are often paying homage without direct need."
Speaker:Elaine: And he references a couple of different spaces: warehouse
Speaker:Elaine: raves, CBGB's, punk, chamber music, gospel, psytrance / Goa,
Speaker:Elaine: outdoors, orchestral, honky tonk, and so thinking about some
Speaker:Elaine: of these different areas that we have different types of spaces
Speaker:Elaine: that people access and then that also links to what the
Speaker:Elaine: cross-pollination of those spaces looks like.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm thinking about orchestras or
Speaker:Elaine: operas in the park or in outdoor
Speaker:Elaine: bandstands, even in Grand
Speaker:Elaine: Central Station, or the New York
Speaker:Elaine: subways.
Speaker:Elaine: Thinking about how those spaces
Speaker:Elaine: really shape our experience with
Speaker:Elaine: music that was maybe designed to
Speaker:Elaine: be played in high end concert
Speaker:Elaine: halls.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I think that's fascinating.
Speaker:Trist: I think you can go both ways.
Speaker:Trist: I think it's interesting to find music that you wouldn't, quote
Speaker:Trist: unquote, normally find in a space, but making realizations
Speaker:Trist: that it can work, like you said, in not conventional.
Speaker:Trist: "Oh, this is generally done in this space.
Speaker:Trist: But look, we found this other
Speaker:Trist: space that it actually really
Speaker:Trist: works."
Speaker:Trist: I think I'm usually more annoyed with the opposite of "Wow,
Speaker:Trist: someone really liked this space and they really liked this
Speaker:Trist: music, but gave zero thought to the fact that it wouldn't really
Speaker:Trist: work very well to do this music in this space."
Speaker:Trist: Like most things, rather than
Speaker:Trist: noticing how effective something
Speaker:Trist: is, it's like, oh, it's when it
Speaker:Trist: doesn't work is when it really
Speaker:Trist: sticks out.
Speaker:Trist: Living here in Los Angeles, I feel like I'm surprised every
Speaker:Trist: time because being an audio engineer and thinking about an
Speaker:Trist: orchestra, we have the magnificent space, the Walt
Speaker:Trist: Disney Concert Hall, where the LA Phil plays, and it's just
Speaker:Trist: perfection for me.
Speaker:Trist: It's a perfect match.
Speaker:Trist: It's built for that.
Speaker:Trist: I sit way up in the rafters and the sound just comes right to
Speaker:Trist: me, and it's this gorgeous blend, and it's just amazing.
Speaker:Trist: And I think having that
Speaker:Trist: experience every time I go to
Speaker:Trist: the Hollywood Bowl and hear the
Speaker:Trist: LA Phil play, even though I've
Speaker:Trist: done it many times, I have
Speaker:Trist: somewhere in my head like, well,
Speaker:Trist: outdoors.
Speaker:Trist: This isn't going to sound as good.
Speaker:Trist: It's not going to be great.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, well, the shape of
Speaker:Trist: the Bowl itself helps, but the
Speaker:Trist: sound crew there and the
Speaker:Trist: reinforcement there and the
Speaker:Trist: people, they've done it so many
Speaker:Trist: times.
Speaker:Trist: Every summer they do it, two,
Speaker:Trist: three, four shows a week for so
Speaker:Trist: many years.
Speaker:Trist: It's the same great crew, that feed it to you.
Speaker:Trist: And every time I feel like I'm surprised that it sounds amazing
Speaker:Trist: at the Hollywood Bowl.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, that's interesting to think.
Speaker:Elaine: And it ties really well into the last little segment of our
Speaker:Elaine: friend David's Threads post.
Speaker:Elaine: He adds an parenthetical
Speaker:Elaine: statement at the very end,
Speaker:Elaine: saying, this could also be a
Speaker:Elaine: reflection on the role of
Speaker:Elaine: amplification.
Speaker:Elaine: You being a sound engineer, what thoughts do you have around that
Speaker:Elaine: in terms of amplification and the relationship that we have to
Speaker:Elaine: space and the relationship that we have to music creation?
Speaker:Trist: I think the role of the amplification primarily – there
Speaker:Trist: are exceptions, but primarily – is just not getting in the way,
Speaker:Trist: just making the music work in whatever the space is.
Speaker:Trist: the initial thing I think of is
Speaker:Trist: like, if you have a bluegrass
Speaker:Trist: ensemble, I pretty much would
Speaker:Trist: prefer to hear them completely
Speaker:Trist: acoustic.
Speaker:Trist: It's like mostly acoustic instruments.
Speaker:Trist: It'd be great to be in a small
Speaker:Trist: little space where, oh, there
Speaker:Trist: they are.
Speaker:Trist: I can hear this banjo on the dobro and upright bass and
Speaker:Trist: guitar and the singers and everyone just mixes themselves
Speaker:Trist: acoustically, and we're all in the same space, so we can all
Speaker:Trist: hear it just naturally.
Speaker:Trist: That's perfect to me.
Speaker:Trist: Now, if I hear this world class
Speaker:Trist: bluegrass ensemble at the
Speaker:Trist: aforementioned Hollywood Bowl,
Speaker:Trist: well, we're not going to hear
Speaker:Trist: them.
Speaker:Trist: So I need amplification for it.
Speaker:Trist: But what kind of amplification
Speaker:Trist: do I want to provide so everyone
Speaker:Trist: could hear as close to the
Speaker:Trist: experience that I would feel if
Speaker:Trist: I were just hearing them
Speaker:Trist: acoustically?
Speaker:Trist: It's like, sure, the purist model might be, oh, we should
Speaker:Trist: always hear them acoustically.
Speaker:Trist: Well, great.
Speaker:Trist: I want twenty thousand people to hear them.
Speaker:Trist: So that's how many shows a night.
Speaker:Trist: For how many weeks do we have to do in this little club that
Speaker:Trist: holds two hundred people to accomplish that goal?
Speaker:Trist: Can't do it.
Speaker:Trist: And monetarily, it sure is nice for those great musicians to
Speaker:Trist: have the recognition and have people hear them.
Speaker:Trist: When they're creating that music, they're not thinking, oh,
Speaker:Trist: I'm going to write this one because it's going to sound
Speaker:Trist: great at the Hollywood Bowl where there's seventeen thousand
Speaker:Trist: people listening to it.
Speaker:Trist: No, they're creating it in the space that they're used to, and
Speaker:Trist: then showing up at a place that needs to be amplified.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, it's interesting to hear you say that.
Speaker:Elaine: There are two different things that I'd like to bring up, and
Speaker:Elaine: I'll bring them one at a time.
Speaker:Elaine: So one of them is a talk that I heard, I don't know, way long
Speaker:Elaine: ago with the Swingles.
Speaker:Elaine: And back then they were the Swingle Singers before they
Speaker:Elaine: changed their name, and they were talking about how they
Speaker:Elaine: practiced, and it was knee to knee in a tight circle because
Speaker:Elaine: everyone was singing piano.
Speaker:Elaine: Everyone was singing very, very quietly, and they leveraged the
Speaker:Elaine: mic to be able to get the sound that they wanted, because that
Speaker:Elaine: piano sound was a particular, I'd say, purer sound that they
Speaker:Elaine: were going for as they were singing, and they seemed to rely
Speaker:Elaine: a lot on the amplification in order to get the sound that they
Speaker:Elaine: were going for.
Speaker:Elaine: Any reactions to that?
Speaker:Trist: Well, the specifics of
Speaker:Trist: especially vocal music in a
Speaker:Trist: cappella settings.
Speaker:Trist: You are doing a lot with one,
Speaker:Trist: either the coloration that you
Speaker:Trist: want.
Speaker:Trist: Again, am I just, as an engineer, amplifying the sound
Speaker:Trist: they've already perfected?
Speaker:Trist: Which to me that's what that is.
Speaker:Trist: It's yeah, the mic has something to do with it.
Speaker:Trist: But they've decided, oh, we're going to rehearse this small
Speaker:Trist: sound because we like the blend and the sound of it.
Speaker:Trist: So amplifying it, I'm not going
Speaker:Trist: to try to color it any
Speaker:Trist: differently than I would hear
Speaker:Trist: them acoustically.
Speaker:Trist: Now, where that would change is
Speaker:Trist: even that same ensemble goes to
Speaker:Trist: a song where they have a rhythm
Speaker:Trist: section.
Speaker:Trist: So instead of actually adding drums or a drum machine or
Speaker:Trist: adding electric bass or upright bass, which back in the day,
Speaker:Trist: they had real drums and a real upright bass, now they have a
Speaker:Trist: person singing that.
Speaker:Trist: So those sounds aren't going to be the same as their choral
Speaker:Trist: songs they were doing.
Speaker:Trist: So that's where you're utilizing the amplification as part of
Speaker:Trist: what your sound is.
Speaker:Trist: I feel like there are some other places that happens, but, being
Speaker:Trist: more familiar with the a cappella thing, that's something
Speaker:Trist: that many groups have.
Speaker:Trist: And having that as an ideal before you start like, oh, what
Speaker:Trist: we're doing is we're using the microphones as our instrument in
Speaker:Trist: tandem with our voice.
Speaker:Trist: So we're just using our voice.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes if from the start you
Speaker:Trist: have the goal of we're going to
Speaker:Trist: produce this sound and figure
Speaker:Trist: out what our sound is with our
Speaker:Trist: voices, and then we're going to
Speaker:Trist: add amplification so you can
Speaker:Trist: hear the sound that we've
Speaker:Trist: perfected.
Speaker:Trist: And sometimes it's wow, I can't really do the sound I want with
Speaker:Trist: just my voice.
Speaker:Trist: If I use my voice as an instrument and also use this
Speaker:Trist: microphone as an instrument.
Speaker:Trist: The two together I can fashion
Speaker:Trist: to come up with the sound that I
Speaker:Trist: want.
Speaker:Trist: So instead of just falling into that, having that understanding
Speaker:Trist: from the outset, I think is really helpful to achieve the
Speaker:Trist: sounds that you're going for.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. And that led really well
Speaker:Elaine: into my second point, which is
Speaker:Elaine: the reason why I call myself a
Speaker:Elaine: vocal percussionist and not a
Speaker:Elaine: beatboxer.
Speaker:Elaine: I normally say, hey, I'm a
Speaker:Elaine: beatboxer to people who don't
Speaker:Elaine: know the difference between the
Speaker:Elaine: two because they understand
Speaker:Elaine: that.
Speaker:Elaine: But my technique is very different because my technique
Speaker:Elaine: as a vocal percussionist is really around popping the mic
Speaker:Elaine: and leveraging the mic.
Speaker:Elaine: So it's really quiet when I don't have a microphone, which
Speaker:Elaine: is why when people ask me just to beatbox, I'm like, I can't
Speaker:Elaine: because it sounds terrible without a microphone.
Speaker:Elaine: But my microphone and the way
Speaker:Elaine: that it is eq'd really helps me
Speaker:Elaine: to make the sound the way that I
Speaker:Elaine: want it.
Speaker:Elaine: Whereas the more classic beatboxers, it was really
Speaker:Elaine: introduced as something that you could do in a circle outside.
Speaker:Elaine: it was very much more of a social thing.
Speaker:Elaine: And so it was louder the way that people learned how to
Speaker:Elaine: beatbox out on the streets.
Speaker:Elaine: And so that's something that I think is interesting to think
Speaker:Elaine: about, like the relationship of amplification to your music,
Speaker:Elaine: especially if you rely on it like I do.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, right.
Speaker:Trist: The origin of that being the human beatbox, we've shortened
Speaker:Trist: it because you're doing a human reproduction of the beatbox, the
Speaker:Trist: little instrument that you would bring that would make the beats
Speaker:Trist: to rhyme over.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, any last thoughts about this question before we wrap up?
Speaker:Trist: No, that was a good one.
Speaker:Trist: Thanks a lot, David, for contributing.
Speaker:Trist: And if you have any other thoughts about this discussion
Speaker:Trist: or anything from our song today from Basia, if you have any
Speaker:Trist: questions about it or some other insight into, being Polish or
Speaker:Trist: singing in a second language, please let us know.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: And you can get ahold of us via
Speaker:Elaine: email at themusiciansloupe
Speaker:Elaine: L-O-U-P-E at gmail.com or on
Speaker:Elaine: Instagram and threads
Speaker:Elaine: @themusiciansloupe.
Speaker:Trist: Thanks again.
Speaker:Elaine: All right, have a great week.
Speaker:Elaine: See you next time.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. And we're laughing.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Astrud Gilberto.
Speaker:Trist: Astrud.
Speaker:Elaine: Astrud.
Speaker:Trist: Astrud.
Speaker:Trist: Astrud.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Astrud Gilberto.
Speaker:Elaine: Let me say that again.
Speaker:Elaine: Very curious.
Speaker:Elaine: Very curious.
Speaker:Elaine: Paul Simon.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm let's see.
Speaker:Elaine: Doo doo doo.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm not going to say that.
