Vocalese, a carrot garden, and a very naughty rabbit: Cottontail (Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross)
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://youtu.be/r55laPFEY0k
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/0lif2WoJ1LOQWmmJ1JV9gY?si=599443ee63cb4524
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/cottontail/170501696
- Amazon - https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B00138H29K?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_O64dpDZHgJ98zsvP8EC2LNl4X&trackAsin=B00137VE90
Other links
- Duke Ellington’s Cotton Tail
Key takeaways
- Trist and Elaine dive into the unique style of vocalese, where lyrics are added to instrumental melodies and solos, highlighting the legendary contributions of Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross, particularly their rendition of Duke Ellington's "Cottontail”
- Elaine and Trist discuss how varying tempos in different versions of "Cottontail" influence the song's energy, mood, and storytelling, emphasizing the relationship between tempo and audience perception
- In the Mailbag segment, the hosts highlight the similarities between individual and team-based activities in music and sports, emphasizing the role of community and support structures in both fields
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist!
Speaker:Elaine: What do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Oh good one this week.
Speaker:Trist: We have a representation of something called vocalese, which
Speaker:Trist: we'll get into.
Speaker:Trist: It's not a dessert topping.
Speaker:Trist: It's not a household cleaner.
Speaker:Trist: We'll talk about what that is.
Speaker:Trist: It's also going to have
Speaker:Trist: references to the story of Peter
Speaker:Trist: Rabbit.
Speaker:Elaine: Ooh, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: Classic
Speaker:Trist: How
Speaker:Elaine: Beatrix
Speaker:Trist: about that
Speaker:Elaine: Potter.
Speaker:Trist: for.
Speaker:Trist: How about that for an interesting lede?
Speaker:Trist: This is Lambert, Hendricks and
Speaker:Trist: Ross and their vocalese version
Speaker:Trist: of the song from Duke
Speaker:Trist: Ellington's "Cottontail."
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, "Cottontail."
Speaker:Elaine: Well, you know Lambert, Hendricks and Ross.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm really looking forward to this.
Speaker:Elaine: I've always wanted to listen more to them.
Speaker:Elaine: Certainly within vocal music
Speaker:Elaine: spheres, they are, I mean,
Speaker:Elaine: unparalleled.
Speaker:Trist: Legendary, legendary, legendary.
Speaker:Elaine: Absolutely.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so before we get into this, can you tell us a little
Speaker:Elaine: bit about how we should be listening to music as members of
Speaker:Elaine: The Musician's Loupe community?
Speaker:Trist: We here at The Musicians Loupe strongly encourage you to
Speaker:Trist: improve your listening situation if you are able.
Speaker:Trist: So if you're able to put on the nicer pair of headphones, go
Speaker:Trist: into the room that has the nicer speakers, etc. please do so.
Speaker:Trist: And as always, regardless of how
Speaker:Trist: you're listening, we're glad
Speaker:Trist: you're joining us from wherever
Speaker:Trist: it is.
Speaker:Trist: Even if you are stuck with whatever listening you have,
Speaker:Trist: we're just glad to have you listen at all.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: So we're going to go ahead and
Speaker:Elaine: leave the links inside of the
Speaker:Elaine: show notes for you to listen to
Speaker:Elaine: on all of your favorite
Speaker:Elaine: platforms, and we'll be right
Speaker:Elaine: back.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh my goodness, that was so cute.
Speaker:Elaine: It was so cute.
Speaker:Elaine: Ah.
Speaker:Trist: It's a great one.
Speaker:Elaine: It is absolutely amazing.
Speaker:Elaine: Actually, this is not the first
Speaker:Elaine: time that I have heard this
Speaker:Elaine: song.
Speaker:Elaine: A local Bay Area jazz vocal group had done a complete a cappella
Speaker:Elaine: cover of this song and It was always one of my favorite things
Speaker:Elaine: that they performed as a part of their repertoire.
Speaker:Trist: Ooh, we must be talking about my friends in +4db.
Speaker:Elaine: Yes, definitely.
Speaker:Trist: Wow.
Speaker:Elaine: Uh, miss you guys.
Speaker:Elaine: Love you all.
Speaker:Elaine: Hope you're all listening.
Speaker:Trist: We are as niche as it can get here at The Musician's Loupe.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, they did do this, that's right.
Speaker:Trist: Lambert, Hendricks and Ross
Speaker:Trist: known for these individually and
Speaker:Trist: as a group, in the style of
Speaker:Trist: Vocalese.
Speaker:Trist: By the way, my introduction to
Speaker:Trist: that, that was a tip of the hat
Speaker:Trist: to my coworkers in The Manhattan
Speaker:Trist: Transfer.
Speaker:Trist: That was the bit that they would say, because they had so much
Speaker:Trist: music that they did that was in the vocalese style.
Speaker:Trist: And, those were some of the jokes they used to say about it.
Speaker:Trist: It's not a dessert topping, it's not a household cleaner, etc..
Speaker:Trist: Miss you girls.
Speaker:Trist: So basically what we're dealing
Speaker:Trist: with is lyrics added not only to
Speaker:Trist: a melody of a song, but also
Speaker:Trist: Stories added and written to
Speaker:Trist: every improvised solo or section
Speaker:Trist: that happens.
Speaker:Trist: So not just the main melody.
Speaker:Trist: This comes from The Duke Ellington Orchestra.
Speaker:Trist: So we'll also include in the
Speaker:Trist: show links the original
Speaker:Trist: recording that these were based
Speaker:Trist: on.
Speaker:Trist: So if you listen to them back and forth, you'll recognize
Speaker:Trist: trumpet solos or entire sections of the orchestra of the big band
Speaker:Trist: playing different parts that the group ended up singing.
Speaker:Trist: John Hendricks was the one that would write all of the lyrics
Speaker:Trist: and in this instance decided on the story of Peter Rabbit.
Speaker:Trist: And I love the fact that in all of these cases, no matter what
Speaker:Trist: he's doing, he's only given the song and a single title and then
Speaker:Trist: he goes from there.
Speaker:Trist: So no idea if he ever got to
Speaker:Trist: talk to Duke Ellington about
Speaker:Trist: what he was thinking, but just
Speaker:Trist: having a title and then running
Speaker:Trist: with it was really the magic of
Speaker:Trist: John Hendricks.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. And I think that one of the things about vocalese, if I
Speaker:Elaine: were to summarize what I just heard, is that it would take
Speaker:Elaine: instrumental tracks and then write lyrics to those
Speaker:Elaine: instrumental tracks and sing them, and that was something
Speaker:Elaine: that was particular to Lambert, Hendricks and Ross.
Speaker:Elaine: And then later on, Manhattan Transfer and a number of other
Speaker:Elaine: groups began to pick up this theme as well.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. The Manhattan Transfer album called Vocalese all
Speaker:Trist: includes lyrics written by John for the album.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker:Elaine: And he is fantastic.
Speaker:Elaine: And just thinking about, getting just the name of the song.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, one of the things that I realized was that the Duke
Speaker:Elaine: Ellington song was "Cotton Tail," two different words,
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: while this version is "Cottontail," all one word.
Speaker:Elaine: An interesting side note there I
Speaker:Elaine: was looking up Cottontail and
Speaker:Elaine: that was the name of the
Speaker:Elaine: littlest sister.
Speaker:Elaine: Fun, fun fact here I was looking
Speaker:Elaine: at the lyrics and talked about
Speaker:Elaine: Flopsy and Mopsy as brothers,
Speaker:Elaine: and I'm like, oh, wait, aren't
Speaker:Elaine: they sisters?
Speaker:Trist: Ah.
Speaker:Elaine: And it turns out they actually are three sisters: Flopsy,
Speaker:Elaine: Mopsy, and Cottontail.
Speaker:Elaine: So Cottontail is a third sister.
Speaker:Trist: How about that?
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. And I went back to the cover that +4db had done, and
Speaker:Elaine: they actually changed it to sisters instead of brothers.
Speaker:Elaine: So I'm like, call out to people
Speaker:Elaine: who are hardcore Beatrix Potter
Speaker:Elaine: people.
Speaker:Trist: How about that?
Speaker:Trist: It doesn't surprise me at all.
Speaker:Trist: It's probably kind of more amazing that just out of
Speaker:Trist: nowhere, he remembered that those were the other two names
Speaker:Trist: without probably referencing it.
Speaker:Trist: You know, if he had referenced it from the literature
Speaker:Trist: somewhere, he maybe would have included it being the sister.
Speaker:Trist: Of course, I'm just
Speaker:Trist: hypothesizing on his methodology
Speaker:Trist: and in writing that he
Speaker:Trist: remembered those were two of the
Speaker:Trist: other bunny names that included
Speaker:Trist: them.
Speaker:Trist: John was amazing in the way that
Speaker:Trist: he would pull from different
Speaker:Trist: literary references, cultural
Speaker:Trist: references, etc..
Speaker:Elaine: One thing I really loved about
Speaker:Elaine: this song was how much character
Speaker:Elaine: it had in terms of telling Peter
Speaker:Elaine: Rabbit's story and the
Speaker:Elaine: personality that he has in
Speaker:Elaine: there.
Speaker:Elaine: Just a couple of little things where, as he's running, he's
Speaker:Elaine: like, "Aaaaugh, and I run!" and just the interplay between Peter
Speaker:Elaine: and his mom and all of the wisdom that his mom had left
Speaker:Elaine: him, and he was like, "No, I'm not going to listen!" So this
Speaker:Elaine: story that we know so well.
Speaker:Elaine: And one of the things we've talked about before in this
Speaker:Elaine: podcast is talking about our cultural references and how that
Speaker:Elaine: influences how we intersect with music, and this is one where
Speaker:Elaine: Peter Rabbit is such a childhood staple and such a classic that
Speaker:Elaine: we automatically understand what the song is talking about.
Speaker:Trist: Even some of the passages that fly by, technically, they're
Speaker:Trist: flying by, and you can't necessarily always understand
Speaker:Trist: all the lyrics.
Speaker:Trist: You're right.
Speaker:Trist: You still, because it's a story,
Speaker:Trist: you understand, it's easier to
Speaker:Trist: make more inferences and
Speaker:Trist: understanding what the lyrics
Speaker:Trist: are.
Speaker:Trist: It's really great storytelling.
Speaker:Trist: And I think he's just magical, the way he's able to write these
Speaker:Trist: lyrics that fit the music.
Speaker:Trist: And when he would work with the Transfer, he would tell them,
Speaker:Trist: "Yeah, just think about the music and the melody."
Speaker:Trist: You know, I'm sure he would like people to understand the words,
Speaker:Trist: but his priority was always that you were relaying what the music
Speaker:Trist: is before worrying about what the words were.
Speaker:Trist: And I think his talent was
Speaker:Trist: writing the lyrics in such a way
Speaker:Trist: that you could very easily do
Speaker:Trist: both.
Speaker:Trist: You could very easily portray what the music was and sing all
Speaker:Trist: the really fast passages, and he wrote the lyrics in a way to
Speaker:Trist: sometimes even help you be able to do it better.
Speaker:Elaine: But the lyrics are also so
Speaker:Elaine: clever, and I think about some
Speaker:Elaine: of my favorite lyrics from the
Speaker:Elaine: song.
Speaker:Elaine: "Every little carrot is a stolen delight."
Speaker:Elaine: Oh,
Speaker:Trist: Um,
Speaker:Elaine: that's so clever, right?
Speaker:Trist: yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And later on he's talking about, "Because carrots and you / make
Speaker:Elaine: a very good stew."
Speaker:Trist: Yes.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm like, oh, it's so cute.
Speaker:Trist: Yes. Yeah. My favorite lyric of the whole thing is actually the
Speaker:Trist: very last one.
Speaker:Trist: I've heard the old story.
Speaker:Trist: One rabbit's foot will bring
Speaker:Trist: luck / but they're much more
Speaker:Trist: lucky / Luckier, natch, if the
Speaker:Trist: rabbit's attached.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, let me also talk about
Speaker:Elaine: some of the language that's in
Speaker:Elaine: the lyrics, because the phrase
Speaker:Elaine: "natch" is something that is
Speaker:Elaine: very, specific to a part of
Speaker:Elaine: American slang at a particular
Speaker:Elaine: generation.
Speaker:Elaine: I never grew up using the word natch.
Speaker:Elaine: I feel like that was something that really was in the late
Speaker:Elaine: 1950s, early 1960s slang.
Speaker:Elaine: Is that something that you heard growing up?
Speaker:Trist: No. I don't even particularly put that on a period.
Speaker:Trist: I think about that because I'm more familiar with the way that
Speaker:Trist: John would write.
Speaker:Trist: There may come from that, and it's not of my time either.
Speaker:Trist: that's part of the genius of the
Speaker:Trist: way he would write, knowing that
Speaker:Trist: he wanted to say naturally and
Speaker:Trist: wanted something that rhymed and
Speaker:Trist: knew if he shortened it to
Speaker:Trist: "natch," he could make it all
Speaker:Trist: fit.
Speaker:Trist: I think there may be times where he'd be using some slang that
Speaker:Trist: was of a period that he was alive that I wasn't aware of.
Speaker:Trist: But I think more than anything,
Speaker:Trist: it's usually the case that he
Speaker:Trist: was just for his own literary
Speaker:Trist: needs or rhythmic needs in the
Speaker:Trist: passage, trying to get the
Speaker:Trist: combination of the rhythm he
Speaker:Trist: needed, but also sell the
Speaker:Trist: message.
Speaker:Trist: There are many examples through his lyrics where he makes his
Speaker:Trist: own little shortcut, and it's not necessarily something people
Speaker:Trist: would have known.
Speaker:Trist: It's like he would create that.
Speaker:Trist: That's what that one feels like to me.
Speaker:Elaine: I mean, the reason I mention this is that I had read it in a
Speaker:Elaine: Trixie Belden book, and
Speaker:Trist: Mm.
Speaker:Elaine: Trixie Belden was really like 1960s, 1970s.
Speaker:Trist: Perfect.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was like, who
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: uses natch, right?
Speaker:Trist: There you
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: go. Well,
Speaker:Elaine: so,
Speaker:Trist: there it is.
Speaker:Elaine: so now I see it.
Speaker:Elaine: But going
Speaker:Trist: That makes
Speaker:Elaine: back
Speaker:Trist: sense.
Speaker:Elaine: to the cleverness of the lyrics, I'm just looking at another one.
Speaker:Elaine: He's like, "I'm a hooked rabbit / Yeah, I got a carrot habit."
Speaker:Elaine: And it's
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: just so.
Speaker:Elaine: It's so much fun.
Speaker:Elaine: Now I don't know his entire lyric writing career.
Speaker:Elaine: You've sung a lot as a part of The Manhattan Transfer.
Speaker:Elaine: Are a lot of the lyrics there also similarly clever?
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, he goes the spectrum.
Speaker:Trist: I will say it's not every single song.
Speaker:Trist: There are some lyrics that maybe he needed to do hurriedly that
Speaker:Trist: don't go as deep, maybe aren't as complex or as clever.
Speaker:Trist: But boy, there sure are a lot.
Speaker:Trist: There are a lot that have some interesting storytelling, or
Speaker:Trist: sometimes just his own musings, just some of his beliefs that he
Speaker:Trist: wanted to share with the world that he would weave into some of
Speaker:Trist: these tapestries that he's telling, especially on some of
Speaker:Trist: the more extended solos, like a really long trumpet solo.
Speaker:Trist: He might kind of go about anywhere.
Speaker:Trist: I think probably another
Speaker:Trist: favorite example of that is the
Speaker:Trist: Clifford Brown solo on "Joy Spring."
Speaker:Trist: He's
Speaker:Trist: telling all kinds of stories. That
Speaker:Trist: whole song is kind of about the fountain of youth, and he just
Speaker:Trist: goes on and on and on. His
Speaker:Trist: nickname was the "James Joyce of Jive." So
Speaker:Trist: that maybe tells you a little bit
Speaker:Trist: about what others thought of his
Speaker:Trist: writing.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that James Joyce might be right, because this song has
Speaker:Elaine: a very strong storytelling aspect to it.
Speaker:Elaine: I was thinking about the Jim
Speaker:Elaine: Croce song that we reviewed
Speaker:Elaine: early on in this podcast, and we
Speaker:Elaine: were talking about storytelling
Speaker:Elaine: songs, and this struck me as
Speaker:Elaine: being a very clear storytelling
Speaker:Elaine: song because it covers the
Speaker:Elaine: entire gamut of the story of
Speaker:Elaine: Peter stealing carrots from this
Speaker:Elaine: farmer, including all of the
Speaker:Elaine: emotional stuff that's
Speaker:Elaine: happening.
Speaker:Elaine: I felt like that was something
Speaker:Elaine: that was really interesting for
Speaker:Elaine: me to hear, just knowing Peter
Speaker:Elaine: Rabbit so well, but also knowing
Speaker:Elaine: how he's plugging this music
Speaker:Elaine: into a very constrained
Speaker:Elaine: environment because he has this
Speaker:Elaine: music that he has to follow and
Speaker:Elaine: it has to map note to note to
Speaker:Elaine: this existing instrumental
Speaker:Elaine: piece.
Speaker:Elaine: So really interesting to think about that.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I love that he's able to do the storytelling and totally
Speaker:Trist: imbue all of the stylistic feel and musicality of the big band
Speaker:Trist: and of the solo.
Speaker:Trist: That's the key; it still feels like the same music.
Speaker:Trist: When you listen to the
Speaker:Trist: instrumental, it's like, oh
Speaker:Trist: yeah, this feels like the same
Speaker:Trist: thing.
Speaker:Trist: It's not some big take off from it.
Speaker:Trist: And it's fun to find the actual recordings.
Speaker:Trist: Obviously, this was a piece of
Speaker:Trist: music in Duke Ellington's
Speaker:Trist: repertoire.
Speaker:Trist: So there are probably hundreds
Speaker:Trist: of recordings of different live
Speaker:Trist: performances where, yeah, some
Speaker:Trist: of the sections where the whole
Speaker:Trist: section is playing something
Speaker:Trist: like that'll be the same, but
Speaker:Trist: then the solos will just be
Speaker:Trist: different.
Speaker:Trist: You could go to look up any recording of Duke Ellington
Speaker:Trist: playing "Cotton Tail."
Speaker:Trist: And some of these sections will sound right.
Speaker:Trist: The main melody, of course, and
Speaker:Trist: a lot of the different shout
Speaker:Trist: choruses and different soli
Speaker:Trist: sections that the whole band is
Speaker:Trist: playing.
Speaker:Trist: Those don't change performance to performance, but there's just
Speaker:Trist: this one recording where the improvised solos are taken from.
Speaker:Trist: So if you ever are searching
Speaker:Trist: that stuff out when you're
Speaker:Trist: suspecting there's a vocalese,
Speaker:Trist: you need to find the actual
Speaker:Trist: recording that they took it
Speaker:Trist: from.
Speaker:Trist: If you want to try to follow and see how well it's done.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, the reference track is what you're talking about.
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, interesting to think about that.
Speaker:Elaine: And speaking of reference
Speaker:Elaine: tracks, one of the things that I
Speaker:Elaine: noticed about the reference
Speaker:Elaine: track was the difference in
Speaker:Elaine: tempo.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think about the Lambert,
Speaker:Elaine: Hendricks and Ross version, and
Speaker:Elaine: it's much, much faster at a much
Speaker:Elaine: more frenetic
Speaker:Trist: So.
Speaker:Elaine: pace than the Duke Ellington version.
Speaker:Elaine: And as a third reference point, I do have a recording of +4db
Speaker:Elaine: doing this on an album that they released back in the late 90s,
Speaker:Elaine: early 2000s, and that is even at a third tempo somewhere in
Speaker:Elaine: between the two.
Speaker:Elaine: So can you talk a little bit about the relationship of tempo
Speaker:Elaine: and, the energy of the song or can you hazard a guess as to why
Speaker:Elaine: they might have chosen to do this at a faster tempo?
Speaker:Trist: Well, there's a lot of different
Speaker:Trist: factors and I'm intimately
Speaker:Trist: familiar with this particular
Speaker:Trist: one.
Speaker:Trist: This is the plug portion of the podcast.
Speaker:Trist: I have a kind of a collective of singers that do concerts that
Speaker:Trist: are, basically a tribute to Lambert, Hendricks and Ross.
Speaker:Trist: So when we've taken this one on,
Speaker:Trist: I've found that when we practice
Speaker:Trist: it, it's actually easier to sing
Speaker:Trist: along with, the instrumental
Speaker:Trist: recording.
Speaker:Trist: And we like the feel of it more.
Speaker:Trist: Like, it swings a little better.
Speaker:Trist: And that's going to be just
Speaker:Trist: group to group, person to
Speaker:Trist: person.
Speaker:Trist: Because it does move along and there's a lot to get in, I think
Speaker:Trist: sometimes you have the perception that it's a little
Speaker:Trist: faster than it needs to be.
Speaker:Trist: You're like, oh, I have to fit all this in.
Speaker:Trist: And then you get done with it
Speaker:Trist: and realize, oh wow, we were
Speaker:Trist: going a lot faster even than the
Speaker:Trist: original.
Speaker:Trist: So I think the intent is
Speaker:Trist: probably to replicate it fairly
Speaker:Trist: well.
Speaker:Trist: And then I think it's possible
Speaker:Trist: by the time they recorded it,
Speaker:Trist: they just got into a pace and a
Speaker:Trist: groove where that's what felt
Speaker:Trist: good to them, which is totally
Speaker:Trist: fine.
Speaker:Trist: It's not like they had to have it exactly the same tempo, but I
Speaker:Trist: would suspect that's likely why.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes even just a few clicks in either direction, and it's
Speaker:Trist: more difficult to sing.
Speaker:Trist: And also the trick with there is sometimes that spot isn't until
Speaker:Trist: like a third or two thirds of the way through the song.
Speaker:Trist: So when you count it off, you have to think of that section,
Speaker:Trist: sing it to yourself, and then count off the tempo there
Speaker:Elaine: Mm.
Speaker:Trist: instead of at the beginning.
Speaker:Trist: That's a trick that you kind of
Speaker:Trist: have to do sometimes, like, oh,
Speaker:Trist: there's this really fast part
Speaker:Trist: that I have to make sure is the
Speaker:Trist: perfect tempo.
Speaker:Trist: So you choose that one as your
Speaker:Trist: count off example in your brain
Speaker:Trist: so you don't mess up what the
Speaker:Trist: tempo is.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think a lot of it is that, vocally speaking, doing vocalese
Speaker:Elaine: is really challenging because you're singing all of these
Speaker:Trist: And.
Speaker:Elaine: different notes and you have to be very precise about them, and
Speaker:Elaine: they could be all over your range as you're jumping up and
Speaker:Elaine: down trying to replicate what these instruments are doing.
Speaker:Elaine: One of the other things that I wanted to think about in terms
Speaker:Elaine: of tempo is not only how you execute on it, but also how
Speaker:Elaine: tempo influences music and our perception of it.
Speaker:Elaine: Certainly I got a sense of more
Speaker:Elaine: frenetic action, which, given
Speaker:Elaine: that you're talking about a
Speaker:Elaine: bunny that's trying to escape a
Speaker:Elaine: garden, is one of those things
Speaker:Elaine: where it's like, okay, it can be
Speaker:Elaine: quicker.
Speaker:Elaine: And also it adds to the sense of vibrancy where you're like, oh,
Speaker:Elaine: okay, so it's not just anxiety, it's also fun.
Speaker:Elaine: Like it sounds really fun at this particular
Speaker:Trist: This
Speaker:Elaine: tempo.
Speaker:Trist: is true.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm not advocating for one
Speaker:Elaine: tempo versus another, but I
Speaker:Elaine: could see where maybe the
Speaker:Elaine: conversations around the tempo
Speaker:Elaine: had to do more around how it
Speaker:Elaine: felt to
Speaker:Trist: So.
Speaker:Elaine: audiences and how it felt also,
Speaker:Elaine: like you were mentioning, to the
Speaker:Elaine: individual performers.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I think those are both super valid here.
Speaker:Trist: I think they do both of those things exactly like you said.
Speaker:Trist: That's a great point.
Speaker:Trist: If it's a little more relaxed, it doesn't sound like the
Speaker:Trist: rabbit's in that much trouble from getting shot from stealing
Speaker:Trist: all these carrots.
Speaker:Trist: So there needs to be, an urgency to that.
Speaker:Trist: And then you're right.
Speaker:Trist: It's not as bouncy, as fun in general.
Speaker:Trist: You know, that's true.
Speaker:Trist: I think sometimes the tempo, can affect that.
Speaker:Trist: And it's interesting in live performance how your perception
Speaker:Trist: of that can be different night to night depending on just the
Speaker:Trist: day, the environment, what else is happening in your life, in
Speaker:Trist: the space, in the mood of the crowd, where it is in the song
Speaker:Trist: set of the show?
Speaker:Trist: If it's the opener, it has a certain energy.
Speaker:Trist: It's different if you've already done a whole show.
Speaker:Trist: If it follows a song that was also fast, wait, does it need to
Speaker:Trist: be a little faster or a little slower than the last one?
Speaker:Trist: Is it okay if it's the same?
Speaker:Trist: there's all these different factors where tempo matters.
Speaker:Elaine: I love that you mention the live performance aspect of it,
Speaker:Elaine: because I think that's actually something that I loved about
Speaker:Elaine: this to begin with.
Speaker:Elaine: When I first heard this song, it was in the context of a live
Speaker:Elaine: performance and the various singers they sold this song.
Speaker:Elaine: There's so much about the song that's so fun.
Speaker:Elaine: And you're thinking about Peter
Speaker:Elaine: Rabbit just like, oh no, I gotta
Speaker:Elaine: run.
Speaker:Elaine: In the context of The Musician's
Speaker:Elaine: Loupe, we're really only
Speaker:Elaine: listening.
Speaker:Elaine: But performance also has a very visual aspect to it.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that there is something about this in my
Speaker:Elaine: experience with the song that was very visual.
Speaker:Elaine: It was very experiential from that perspective.
Speaker:Elaine: I'd be interested in hearing how you see the physical aspect of
Speaker:Elaine: performance impacting how it lands with the audience.
Speaker:Trist: You are equipped with the great story.
Speaker:Trist: So you don't have to necessarily do a lot, other than just don't
Speaker:Trist: obscure it or get in its way.
Speaker:Trist: Don't do something to distract from how cool the story is.
Speaker:Trist: So when you have that solo
Speaker:Trist: addressing the room and telling
Speaker:Trist: the people, hey, here's this
Speaker:Trist: thing that happened, and then
Speaker:Trist: also getting back into,
Speaker:Trist: formation, if you will, like
Speaker:Trist: when the three of them are all
Speaker:Trist: singing like, oh, this is the
Speaker:Trist: spot where the whole band would
Speaker:Trist: be playing.
Speaker:Trist: Because for us, at least in the
Speaker:Trist: live performance, there's this
Speaker:Trist: understanding of what we're
Speaker:Trist: doing.
Speaker:Trist: We've already probably covered
Speaker:Trist: the fact or in this audience,
Speaker:Trist: they're likely to know that
Speaker:Trist: these are derived from
Speaker:Trist: instrumental pieces.
Speaker:Trist: So that physical thing of like
Speaker:Trist: stepping forward to tell part of
Speaker:Trist: the story.
Speaker:Trist: You can imagine: Oh, yep.
Speaker:Trist: This is the Ben Webster saxophone solo.
Speaker:Trist: If you don't know that specific,
Speaker:Trist: you can tell, oh, this must be
Speaker:Trist: one of those solos because it
Speaker:Trist: just kind of goes on and on and
Speaker:Trist: on and it sounds like it might
Speaker:Trist: be improvised.
Speaker:Trist: And then when they step back and
Speaker:Trist: everyone's singing together,
Speaker:Trist: especially the few times that
Speaker:Trist: they do break into a little
Speaker:Trist: harmony, you can physically see
Speaker:Trist: them be together and you can
Speaker:Trist: hear it.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, this is when the whole band is playing.
Speaker:Elaine: Mmhm.
Speaker:Trist: Um, even if it's not always exactly that, the physical
Speaker:Trist: performance helps not only tell the story, but remind you of the
Speaker:Trist: origin of the music.
Speaker:Elaine: That's an interesting take on that question, because I think I
Speaker:Elaine: was going more towards the embodiment of the actual
Speaker:Elaine: performer who was singing and how that person sells the song.
Speaker:Elaine: And I wasn't thinking so much
Speaker:Elaine: about the relationship to the
Speaker:Elaine: previous performance, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: whether it's like the more
Speaker:Elaine: instrumental performance as
Speaker:Elaine: opposed to I get to sell these
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics because
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: they're fun and I can put myself in the character.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, well, any last thoughts before we move on?
Speaker:Trist: Oh I mean that's it if you enjoy this at all just keep going down
Speaker:Trist: a rabbit hole if you
Speaker:Elaine: Haha.
Speaker:Trist: will.
Speaker:Trist: And um check out more Lambert,
Speaker:Trist: Hendricks and Ross and find the
Speaker:Trist: original recordings and it's
Speaker:Trist: really fun.
Speaker:Trist: still to this day I'll hear, some of the original recordings.
Speaker:Trist: I might know the Lambert, Hendricks and Ross, and I don't
Speaker:Trist: really know the instrumental, some of the tunes maybe that I
Speaker:Trist: haven't ever really sung and had to really study.
Speaker:Trist: And just out in the wild in a jazz club or in a coffee shop or
Speaker:Trist: somewhere, I'll hear the original solos and remember the
Speaker:Trist: lyrics to them.
Speaker:Trist: so that's always kind of fun.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, oh, this is the one that they took that from.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, thank you so much for this introduction.
Speaker:Elaine: And with that, we'll move on to our next segment, which is.
Speaker:Trist: Mail bag.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. Yes. The mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: This week's entry is from Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: It's from the account of Jonathan Smith guitar.
Speaker:Elaine: And it was from February of 2026.
Speaker:Elaine: He posts, actually, these are two posts.
Speaker:Elaine: "What if musicians practice the
Speaker:Elaine: way athletes train?" And then
Speaker:Elaine: the follow up, because he got
Speaker:Elaine: some really good response off of
Speaker:Elaine: that, is "Digging the energy
Speaker:Elaine: here.
Speaker:Elaine: I totally agree, many musicians already train like athletes.
Speaker:Elaine: My real question is about the system around the practice:
Speaker:Elaine: coaching, recovery and support.
Speaker:Elaine: What would change if music had
Speaker:Elaine: the same support system sports
Speaker:Elaine: does?"
Speaker:Trist: I think there are indeed situations and scenarios where
Speaker:Trist: that does exist.
Speaker:Trist: I think this question comes out of the fact that it probably
Speaker:Trist: doesn't exist that much.
Speaker:Trist: Not nearly as much of the same
Speaker:Trist: amount of support, the same kind
Speaker:Trist: of support.
Speaker:Trist: I guess it all just speaks to a
Speaker:Trist: priority of a society, of a
Speaker:Trist: culture, where they put their
Speaker:Trist: energies.
Speaker:Trist: What has importance, what feels
Speaker:Trist: like it needs support, whether
Speaker:Trist: it's emotional, coaching,
Speaker:Trist: financial, etc..
Speaker:Elaine: And he actually posts three different things, right?
Speaker:Elaine: Coaching, recovery and support.
Speaker:Elaine: And I feel like coaching is at least available even
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: if you don't take advantage of it.
Speaker:Elaine: You have
Speaker:Trist: Hmm.
Speaker:Elaine: access to vocal coaches and choirs, instructors, etc.. So I
Speaker:Elaine: feel like coaching is pretty well taken care of.
Speaker:Elaine: And actually, if you think about any of the other instruments you
Speaker:Elaine: might be playing, there are coaches out there as well.
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: we're talking about piano teachers, guitar teachers, drum
Speaker:Elaine: instructors, etc. And I think about, then, recovery and
Speaker:Elaine: support as two different areas.
Speaker:Elaine: And that's one where I'm not entirely as sure about what that
Speaker:Elaine: might look like.
Speaker:Elaine: So what thoughts do you have, being a vocalist?
Speaker:Trist: Well I think coming up through and working and, and being
Speaker:Trist: involved in, more of the educational system and the way
Speaker:Trist: those really I guess that's where I go.
Speaker:Trist: He doesn't ask about that specifically.
Speaker:Trist: But I guess when I see that question, I relate it to a high
Speaker:Trist: school or college, any institution where there is, a
Speaker:Trist: writing club and a math club and a football team and a basketball
Speaker:Trist: team and a rowing team and a choir and a band and a jazz
Speaker:Trist: choir and a big band or whatever, and seeing how those
Speaker:Trist: are supported differently.
Speaker:Trist: And, generically, I would say
Speaker:Trist: that the sports tend to be more
Speaker:Trist: supported.
Speaker:Trist: Again, there are definitely,
Speaker:Trist: places where I've been where
Speaker:Trist: the, different arts programs are
Speaker:Trist: incredibly supported.
Speaker:Trist: And actually, that tells me a little bit of the answer is it
Speaker:Trist: makes a big difference.
Speaker:Trist: The numbers of people involved and the quality, where the
Speaker:Trist: talent is able to manifest itself into a greater quality
Speaker:Trist: output, more focus and more of a real goal inside of these,
Speaker:Trist: individuals that might continue to do that past their schooling.
Speaker:Trist: I think what really scares me is
Speaker:Trist: when I see public service ads
Speaker:Trist: to, to get people to donate to,
Speaker:Trist: to save to save sports programs
Speaker:Trist: in schools, which I'm in full
Speaker:Trist: support of.
Speaker:Trist: I love sports, I'm a big sports fan.
Speaker:Trist: I was involved in the sports programs as an athletic trainer.
Speaker:Trist: when I was in school.
Speaker:Trist: So definitely not an anti sports perspective for me.
Speaker:Trist: However, just as I've traveled around for my job and doing
Speaker:Trist: that, I definitely see a larger conglomerate of money support.
Speaker:Trist: in. Lots of different parts of the country, more supportive to
Speaker:Trist: those rather than arts programs.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, that's interesting to think about, because at least
Speaker:Elaine: where I grew up, it was, I'd say pretty well balanced, if not
Speaker:Elaine: skewing more towards the arts.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, I didn't go to an arts magnet school.
Speaker:Elaine: I actually went to a more academically focused one in
Speaker:Elaine: suburban San Francisco.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think about, Well, we had a full time choir and band
Speaker:Elaine: teacher, but we didn't have any full time sports coaches.
Speaker:Elaine: And so thinking about the level of investment there, there was a
Speaker:Elaine: level of investment.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, I know that things have changed in the decades since
Speaker:Elaine: I've graduated from high school, but if I think about how we as a
Speaker:Elaine: society value one or another?
Speaker:Elaine: Certainly from an educational
Speaker:Elaine: perspective, the answer should
Speaker:Elaine: be "yes."
Speaker:Elaine: You should have lots of opportunities for kids to feel
Speaker:Elaine: like they are plugged into community and into interests
Speaker:Elaine: that matter to them.
Speaker:Elaine: And so if you starve one to feed the other, or starve the other
Speaker:Elaine: to feed the one, you end up in a weird, unbalanced situation.
Speaker:Elaine: But I think going back to the
Speaker:Elaine: thought of what does recovery
Speaker:Elaine: and support look like for these
Speaker:Elaine: particular industries, let's
Speaker:Elaine: take it from a couple of
Speaker:Elaine: different tiers.
Speaker:Elaine: So we have the more amateur tier
Speaker:Elaine: people who are learning or who
Speaker:Elaine: just want to do things for
Speaker:Elaine: community, and then you have
Speaker:Elaine: maybe the more semi-professional
Speaker:Elaine: like still what some people
Speaker:Elaine: might call tent making, where
Speaker:Elaine: they have their own career, but
Speaker:Elaine: they're also pursuing some kind
Speaker:Elaine: of artistic pursuit, And then
Speaker:Elaine: the third one would be full
Speaker:Elaine: time.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that, we're talking about coaching being available
Speaker:Elaine: at all three of these levels.
Speaker:Elaine: But I think that the level of
Speaker:Elaine: support, maybe because we are
Speaker:Elaine: not thinking of these particular
Speaker:Elaine: activities as needing that level
Speaker:Elaine: of support, would be an
Speaker:Elaine: interesting thing for us to
Speaker:Elaine: think through.
Speaker:Elaine: Like, what is it that recovery is going to need?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it just rest?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it medication?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it like a more specialized
Speaker:Elaine: medical community that focuses
Speaker:Elaine: on this?
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know if I have a really clear answer to this, because
Speaker:Elaine: certainly we have sports medicine, but we don't have
Speaker:Elaine: musicians' medical specialties.
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, but do we need it?
Speaker:Elaine: certainly we have like ear, nose
Speaker:Elaine: and throat specialists who would
Speaker:Elaine: be focused on, the health of the
Speaker:Elaine: respiratory system.
Speaker:Elaine: But yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm mulling through that right now and I don't really have a
Speaker:Elaine: clear perspective on it yet.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, true.
Speaker:Trist: I think when I think more about this, the support in all of
Speaker:Trist: those, whether they're again sports different academic things
Speaker:Trist: again like it's the speech and debate team, any club,
Speaker:Elaine: So.
Speaker:Trist: any communal system, something
Speaker:Trist: outside of class, again a band,
Speaker:Trist: choir, theater, marching band,
Speaker:Trist: football team, basketball team,
Speaker:Trist: wrestling, whatever.
Speaker:Trist: All of those are extracurricular.
Speaker:Trist: In all of those disciplines,
Speaker:Trist: there's a small percentage that
Speaker:Trist: might go do that for their
Speaker:Trist: career.
Speaker:Trist: That might be a professional athlete.
Speaker:Trist: Just like there's maybe a small percentage that are involved in
Speaker:Trist: the arts that'll go on to do that in the arts.
Speaker:Trist: At that level, you're really
Speaker:Trist: building the team building, the
Speaker:Trist: working together, the
Speaker:Trist: responsibility.
Speaker:Trist: All the different life lessons
Speaker:Trist: you learn from being on a sports
Speaker:Trist: team, being a single part of an
Speaker:Trist: entity that can excel together
Speaker:Trist: and your own responsibility
Speaker:Trist: therein.
Speaker:Trist: So I think they're equally valuable.
Speaker:Trist: and it's just a matter of deciding and letting everybody
Speaker:Trist: understand that those attributes happen in all of them.
Speaker:Elaine: I was even thinking about the
Speaker:Elaine: concept of Community and how
Speaker:Elaine: that might differ between sports
Speaker:Elaine: and music.
Speaker:Elaine: But then I started thinking,
Speaker:Elaine: well, in certain sports it is
Speaker:Elaine: pretty individual.
Speaker:Elaine: you're thinking about ice skating or you're thinking about
Speaker:Elaine: some of these.
Speaker:Trist: Golf.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, these, these more individual
Speaker:Trist: Tennis.
Speaker:Elaine: pursuits.
Speaker:Elaine: And at the same time, there are communities that are created as
Speaker:Elaine: a part of it.
Speaker:Elaine: You're at the gym at the same time, And so not everything is
Speaker:Elaine: team sports in the same way that not all music is team music.
Speaker:Elaine: I certainly grew up just as an individual piano student, and I
Speaker:Elaine: didn't get involved in choirs or any other type of community
Speaker:Elaine: music making until college.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I'm thinking about, hey, what does it mean for the
Speaker:Elaine: support structure to be there?
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm not fully convinced that it's not.
Speaker:Trist: Again, I think there are some
Speaker:Trist: generalities and some things
Speaker:Trist: that might show themselves to be
Speaker:Trist: there.
Speaker:Trist: And sometimes that support happens in a way that maybe just
Speaker:Trist: isn't as visible.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I think that is something that I can get around.
Speaker:Elaine: And so as we take a look at the
Speaker:Elaine: parallels between athletic
Speaker:Elaine: training and musical training or
Speaker:Elaine: even
Speaker:Trist: So.
Speaker:Elaine: the communities around them, I
Speaker:Elaine: think it really is what you make
Speaker:Elaine: of it.
Speaker:Elaine: Certainly you can find community
Speaker:Elaine: in whatever you do, even if it's
Speaker:Elaine: a bunch of people making music
Speaker:Elaine: independently and sharing it
Speaker:Elaine: with one another and supporting
Speaker:Elaine: one another.
Speaker:Elaine: So maybe this is just a call out to say that we can be each
Speaker:Elaine: other's recovery and support structures if we reach out and
Speaker:Elaine: create that community.
Speaker:Trist: Indeed.
Speaker:Trist: Great question.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome. Okay. So any last thoughts before we wrap up?
Speaker:Trist: That's about it.
Speaker:Trist: If you have any other thoughts
Speaker:Trist: about Lambert, Hendricks and
Speaker:Trist: Ross, Vocalese, jazz big band,
Speaker:Trist: or any of the other topics that
Speaker:Trist: we covered on one of our
Speaker:Trist: episodes that you listened to,
Speaker:Trist: please drop us a line and give
Speaker:Trist: us a comment or a question about
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Elaine: Yes. And you can reach us via email at themusicians loupe
Speaker:Elaine: That's L-O-U-P-E at gmail.com or via Instagram or Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: Our handles there are @themusiciansloupe.
Speaker:Elaine: So hope to see you soon.
Speaker:Elaine: Thank you for joining us this week.
Speaker:Elaine: And see you next time.
Speaker:Trist: Thank you.
Speaker:Elaine: No. What is the phrase?
Speaker:Trist: but boy, not from the perspective of a rabbit.
Speaker:Elaine: The rabbit.
Speaker:Elaine: Like I actually did not correct my voice on one of them, because
Speaker:Trist: Uh-huh.
Speaker:Elaine: if I did, it cut out the siren and the
Speaker:Trist: oh.
Speaker:Elaine: siren was in the credits, I was like, but I
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: want the siren.
Speaker:Elaine: The siren was amusing.
Speaker:Trist: I got nothing.
