Minimalism, metaphor, and heartbreak: Never Thought You'd Leave in Summer (Stevie Wonder)
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrLDXORRDpo&list=RDFrLDXORRDpo
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/37Coai9PTZrf39716Ypi0S
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/never-dreamed-youd-leave-in-summer/1443793772
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B000VWPMX2?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_SAOWAZX6uO74jq9sKAZbYD40N&trackAsin=B000VWQXJY
Key takeaways
- Despite Stevie Wonder’s typical full band sound, this ballad is a minimalistic experience, with just a piano, upright bass, and a light orchestra and choir
- Like most of his music, Stevie Wonder creates unexpected chord progressions that deviate from traditional music rules. However, these chord progressions never distract, only enhance his music
- Elaine and Trist also discuss album order and how it could be influenced by the limitations of available technology, and how it differs from creating a set for a live set
- In the Mailbag segment, Elaine and Trist explore the concept of a “calling” in music
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Contact us
- Email us at: themusiciansloupe@gmail.com
- Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themusiciansloupe/
- Talk with us on Threads: https://www.threads.com/@themusiciansloupe
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist.
Speaker:Elaine: So, what song do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, Elaine, this was so difficult because I realized we
Speaker:Trist: need a Stevie Wonder song.
Speaker:Elaine: Ooh. Uh.
Speaker:Trist: And as we all know, he's one of
Speaker:Trist: those artists, like, you know,
Speaker:Trist: it's like who's your favorite
Speaker:Trist: child?
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: What's your favorite Stevie Wonder song?
Speaker:Trist: Like, what do you mean?
Speaker:Trist: They're all so amazing.
Speaker:Trist: I can't even pick one album, let alone one song.
Speaker:Trist: so this isn't necessarily my
Speaker:Trist: favorite, but I chose this one
Speaker:Trist: because it's not really like a
Speaker:Trist: hit.
Speaker:Trist: it's just a wonderful song.
Speaker:Trist: Um, I think it's one of his most succinct.
Speaker:Trist: He's known, lots of funky, groovy, big horns, big hits.
Speaker:Trist: But, man, some of these ballads are so good.
Speaker:Trist: and in every kind of different kind of writing, Stevie can go a
Speaker:Trist: little long, he might start a concert with twenty minutes of
Speaker:Trist: talking to you about the state of the world.
Speaker:Trist: At any point, he could stop and talk about famine somewhere or
Speaker:Trist: whatever the less fortunate.
Speaker:Trist: You just never know when
Speaker:Trist: Stevie's just going to stretch
Speaker:Trist: something out.
Speaker:Trist: Whether it's a piano solo, a harmonica solo, having his band
Speaker:Trist: playing just vamp forever.
Speaker:Trist: This is a nice, succinct, just well written song.
Speaker:Trist: Heart wrencher just heartbreaker
Speaker:Trist: I oh, it gets me every time I
Speaker:Trist: hear it.
Speaker:Trist: Uh, this is Stevie Wonder's I
Speaker:Trist: never dreamed you'd leave in
Speaker:Trist: summer.
Speaker:Elaine: Uh, never dreamed you'd leave in summer.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, well, we are going to pause in just a moment so that
Speaker:Elaine: everyone can listen to it.
Speaker:Elaine: We will have the links in the show notes for you.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we go into this
Speaker:Elaine: break, um, Trist, you have some
Speaker:Elaine: reminders about how we listen to
Speaker:Elaine: music.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, yes.
Speaker:Trist: Another reminder.
Speaker:Trist: You know, I know so many of you are so great to try to join us
Speaker:Trist: when you have time, maybe out on a walk, etc., where you don't
Speaker:Trist: have the option.
Speaker:Trist: But if you do find yourself
Speaker:Trist: right now going to listen to one
Speaker:Trist: of the links we gave you and you
Speaker:Trist: have the ability to improve your
Speaker:Trist: listening situation, please do
Speaker:Trist: so.
Speaker:Trist: Get out the good headphones.
Speaker:Trist: get out the super nice quality download if you have one.
Speaker:Trist: Pull out the CD, pull out the vinyl, whatever.
Speaker:Trist: If you can listen to this just
Speaker:Trist: I'd like to put that in our
Speaker:Trist: lives.
Speaker:Trist: Let's listen with the best quality we possibly can.
Speaker:Trist: The music deserves it.
Speaker:Trist: And you know, as much as I espouse that, I listen just with
Speaker:Trist: my AirPods as much as anybody, um, it's so convenient.
Speaker:Trist: It's so good on its own.
Speaker:Trist: But if you have the ability to
Speaker:Trist: step up the listening
Speaker:Trist: environment for this one, please
Speaker:Trist: do so.
Speaker:Trist: Thank you.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so with that, we'll be back in just a moment.
Speaker:Elaine: Pause this podcast, go off and
Speaker:Elaine: listen to things, and we'll be
Speaker:Elaine: right back.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: And we are back.
Speaker:Elaine: Wow.
Speaker:Elaine: Um.
Speaker:Trist: Heartbreaking.
Speaker:Elaine: It is.
Speaker:Trist: that last.
Speaker:Trist: Why didn't you stay?
Speaker:Trist: Like how simple.
Speaker:Trist: And yet just like.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, just feels like he holds the note forever.
Speaker:Trist: Also, like, just the end of that every time.
Speaker:Trist: No matter how many times I've heard it.
Speaker:Trist: Man, the first time I heard it, it knocked me out. Like,
Speaker:Trist: I was such a Stevie fan, even of the ballads. It's
Speaker:Trist: not one that people just know right away necessarily. Oh,
Speaker:Trist: just every time I get to the end of it, I just can't help. It's
Speaker:Trist: just- it just- it just kills me.
Speaker:Elaine: So was was the ending the reason you chose the song, or were
Speaker:Elaine: there other reasons?
Speaker:Trist: Just all of it.
Speaker:Trist: It's Stevie Wonder.
Speaker:Trist: It's all good.
Speaker:Trist: I mean, just everything about it.
Speaker:Trist: Again, for someone who's always just more is better, a lot of
Speaker:Trist: times with Stevie Wonder, he'll just go and he'll vamp on you
Speaker:Trist: for fifteen minutes on something, before a song ends.
Speaker:Trist: But, man, just so succinct.
Speaker:Trist: The lyric, the kind of, you
Speaker:Trist: know, the wordplay with dealing,
Speaker:Trist: parallels with using the
Speaker:Trist: seasons.
Speaker:Trist: Um, is just clever.
Speaker:Trist: Good writing.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, just.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, harmonically, you know,
Speaker:Trist: this is another example of
Speaker:Trist: Stevie doesn't like he kind of
Speaker:Trist: knows the quote unquote rules
Speaker:Trist: musicians.
Speaker:Trist: You know, he and he studied musicians like, oh, these chords
Speaker:Trist: normally go to these other chords like Stevie doesn't
Speaker:Trist: really pay attention to that.
Speaker:Trist: Stevie like has a melody and there's some chords that support
Speaker:Trist: it, and they just go wherever they're going to go.
Speaker:Trist: If it needs to change keys three times or seven times or no
Speaker:Trist: times, he'll just do whatever the music needs.
Speaker:Trist: It's not always in a traditional way.
Speaker:Trist: It's not always in a direction you've heard before or at an
Speaker:Trist: interval you've heard before.
Speaker:Trist: And yet never seems weird.
Speaker:Trist: It never seems like, oh, he was
Speaker:Trist: just doing something to be
Speaker:Trist: clever, moving a tritone or
Speaker:Trist: something away.
Speaker:Trist: Like it's never for the sake of
Speaker:Trist: being clever or knowing things
Speaker:Trist: about music.
Speaker:Trist: It's always serving what the music, the feeling, the lyric
Speaker:Trist: has to do.
Speaker:Trist: It always moves you emotionally
Speaker:Trist: when he does something
Speaker:Trist: interesting.
Speaker:Trist: There's a bunch of that in this song.
Speaker:Trist: But yeah, you kind of don't expect it.
Speaker:Trist: It's like it's oh, it's- Wow, it's really heartfelt anyway.
Speaker:Trist: And then just as simple, just a very simple all this happened
Speaker:Trist: like why didn't you stay and just holds the note forever.
Speaker:Trist: It's just like ah!
Speaker:Trist: Ah!
Speaker:Trist: That's why.
Speaker:Elaine: Well yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And it's interesting that you say simple because, I think a
Speaker:Elaine: lot of times I also do think of Stevie as maximalist, right?
Speaker:Elaine: There's a lot of stuff going on in his music.
Speaker:Elaine: And the orchestration of this is so simple.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think I was very surprised at this because it started out
Speaker:Elaine: with just very basic piano without a whole lot of, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, damper on it.
Speaker:Elaine: So it wasn't like we had sustain on it.
Speaker:Elaine: It was a very dry kind of piano sound.
Speaker:Elaine: And then there was an upright bass kind of plucked bass sound.
Speaker:Elaine: And then what got me was that the oboe came in and I'm like,
Speaker:Elaine: where is this oboe coming in?
Speaker:Trist: And then.
Speaker:Trist: And then, oh, the orchestra's like, okay, that's our key.
Speaker:Trist: We can also play now.
Speaker:Elaine: Right, exactly.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. Love that.
Speaker:Elaine: And it was I mean, that that level of shift was over the
Speaker:Elaine: course of like 30, 45 seconds.
Speaker:Elaine: But I would also say that, back to your whole point about
Speaker:Elaine: listening to this I was listening to this on my studio
Speaker:Elaine: speakers and so like very clear left and right.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm sitting right in between them.
Speaker:Elaine: It's like in a very good balanced situation.
Speaker:Elaine: And I noticed at the very beginning that the piano was
Speaker:Elaine: panned far, far left.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was very surprised at this.
Speaker:Elaine: And then the bass came in at
Speaker:Elaine: center with the voice, and the
Speaker:Elaine: oboe came in and like the right
Speaker:Elaine: speaker.
Speaker:Elaine: And then all of a sudden the entire orchestra came in and I
Speaker:Elaine: had this sudden sense of I was in the middle of something.
Speaker:Elaine: And so that hard pan left did not surprise me or surprised me
Speaker:Elaine: at the beginning, but it didn't surprise me after all the other
Speaker:Elaine: instruments came in.
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: But still, you know, with the
Speaker:Elaine: full orchestra, it still felt
Speaker:Elaine: sparse.
Speaker:Trist: And even a choir, there's like a choir too.
Speaker:Elaine: Yes. I was wondering about.
Speaker:Elaine: That because I thought I heard the choir and then I, I doubt-
Speaker:Elaine: like I second guessed myself.
Speaker:Trist: Like, it's so well mixed as just
Speaker:Trist: another timbre, you know,
Speaker:Trist: they're not on anywhere, just on
Speaker:Trist: some oohs.
Speaker:Trist: So it's just another texture.
Speaker:Trist: You know, just like in movies, film scoring, there's always,
Speaker:Trist: almost always a big choir and a film score, even though you
Speaker:Trist: don't feel like you hear it, especially if there's no lyric.
Speaker:Trist: It's just another texture, along
Speaker:Trist: with strings and brass and
Speaker:Trist: percussion and, um, yeah, just
Speaker:Trist: gorgeous.
Speaker:Trist: But you're right, it just creeps
Speaker:Trist: in and then it's like, oh, hey,
Speaker:Trist: by the way, here's this whole
Speaker:Trist: orchestra that you didn't know
Speaker:Trist: was here, led by the oboe every
Speaker:Trist: time.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. I think that in some ways the orchestration really leads
Speaker:Elaine: to the sense of tenderness or vulnerability in this song,
Speaker:Elaine: because the lyrics.
Speaker:Elaine: I mean, it matches the lyrics so well.
Speaker:Elaine: The lyrics we're talking about, spring, summer, or fall.
Speaker:Elaine: Interesting: I noticed there was no winter.
Speaker:Elaine: There was no winter mentioned.
Speaker:Elaine: And so as some as someone who's
Speaker:Elaine: like, I'm looking for all four
Speaker:Elaine: seasons!
Speaker:Elaine: (Right.) That that stuck out to
Speaker:Elaine: me as something that was just
Speaker:Elaine: missing there.
Speaker:Trist: But as the, the implication like, oh, it's supposed to be.
Speaker:Trist: So it started to be cold.
Speaker:Trist: So it's like.
Speaker:Elaine: It's in the winter of my soul.
Speaker:Trist: Without ever saying it.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, that being said, you know, the sparseness of it, I think,
Speaker:Elaine: led to the sense of intimacy.
Speaker:Elaine: And, you know, it's interesting to think about how
Speaker:Elaine: orchestration, especially as someone as maximalist as as
Speaker:Elaine: Stevie Wonder really begins to change in some ways.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: And I wonder if this song in the
Speaker:Elaine: context of the album, that it
Speaker:Elaine: was on.
Speaker:Elaine: Because we, you and I talk frequently about songs within
Speaker:Elaine: the context of albums and like the shape of an album, not just
Speaker:Elaine: the shape of a song.
Speaker:Elaine: kKowing what you know about this
Speaker:Elaine: album, can you tell us a little
Speaker:Elaine: bit about, you know, where this
Speaker:Elaine: fits?
Speaker:Trist: Well, interestingly enough, something that I learned in kind
Speaker:Trist: of doing this, I knew, that the song actually comes from an
Speaker:Trist: album "Where I'm Coming From," is the album that it appears on.
Speaker:Trist: However, it was the B-side for his version of the Beatles "We
Speaker:Trist: Can Work It Out," which comes from the album before it.
Speaker:Trist: So it had been in the can, as we
Speaker:Trist: in the industry say, it had been
Speaker:Trist: recorded already.
Speaker:Trist: And it was first released as a B-side to "We Can Work It Out,"
Speaker:Trist: which is, I think, one of the best Beatles covers ever.
Speaker:Trist: That's a whole other episode we could do.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, it's the B-side to that song.
Speaker:Trist: and I was not aware of that until I was looking up some
Speaker:Trist: stuff for us to do this episode.
Speaker:Trist: So, you know, the album that it does appear on an album for him.
Speaker:Trist: Um, and by the way, Syreeta
Speaker:Trist: Wright, his first wife, uh, was
Speaker:Trist: also a co-songwriter on this,
Speaker:Trist: along with many, many of his
Speaker:Trist: songs from this, from this
Speaker:Trist: period.
Speaker:Trist: So I don't want to leave her out.
Speaker:Trist: Stevie did so much of everything that you forget that there are
Speaker:Trist: sometimes other people that.
Speaker:Elaine: He worked.
Speaker:Trist: With. Everything feels like he did it.
Speaker:Trist: He produced it.
Speaker:Trist: He wrote it.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: She was a singer songwriter, in the Motown era with him.
Speaker:Trist: Probably the biggest song from
Speaker:Trist: this album is "If you really love me /
Speaker:Trist: won't you tell me?" That song, "If
Speaker:Trist: You Really Love Me," was probably
Speaker:Trist: the biggest hit. And, it's
Speaker:Trist: kind
Speaker:Trist: of an era- this album is full
Speaker:Trist: of some more contemporary themes kind
Speaker:Trist: of around the same
Speaker:Trist: time as, uh, "What's Going On,"
Speaker:Trist: you know, so have a view
Speaker:Trist: about things that are going on
Speaker:Trist: in the world, etc.. So just this
Speaker:Trist: dropped in there, it's not even
Speaker:Trist: three minutes long. There are
Speaker:Trist: some
Speaker:Trist: other songs on the album that are that, but there are also
Speaker:Trist: some, you know, nearly, you know, 6 and 7 minute tunes as well.
Speaker:Trist: So I, I
Speaker:Trist: honestly feel like he's one of those people that he's just so musical.
Speaker:Trist: He's so aware
Speaker:Trist: that I think he just naturally knows. Okay, well, I
Speaker:Trist: did these 6 or 7 minute songs. We need one
Speaker:Trist: that gets straight to the point. I think he
Speaker:Trist: may I, I have no idea if this is the case in my brain. That's that that's
Speaker:Trist: true in my mind. Like if he
Speaker:Trist: was just to start doing a concert
Speaker:Trist: without a plan, he would like
Speaker:Trist: naturally, make good pacing just
Speaker:Trist: because he's so darn musical. like,
Speaker:Trist: oh, that
Speaker:Trist: was three big, long, vampy songs in a row. Okay, let's do
Speaker:Trist: a ballad that's only three minutes long.
Speaker:Elaine: You know?
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that there's there's something in there that I want
Speaker:Elaine: to dig a little bit more into, because there is a shaping of an
Speaker:Elaine: album, you know, where you're thinking about the juxtaposition
Speaker:Elaine: of the songs in context with one another, very similar to the
Speaker:Elaine: type of work that you put into putting a set together.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: You have the, you know, you have
Speaker:Elaine: all the songs that you can do
Speaker:Elaine: live, and the longer you've been
Speaker:Elaine: together, the longer the more of
Speaker:Elaine: a discography that you have to
Speaker:Elaine: choose from.
Speaker:Elaine: And as you're putting the sets together, you want to think
Speaker:Elaine: about, oh, what is the arc that I want people to be on?
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Is there a dip where we do
Speaker:Elaine: something a little bit more
Speaker:Elaine: intimate?
Speaker:Elaine: Do we bring it back up?
Speaker:Elaine: You know, what is the energy in the room that we're managing?
Speaker:Elaine: And yeah, I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about
Speaker:Elaine: that and like your experience with live performance and how
Speaker:Elaine: you shape that type of experience for people.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, well, yeah, it is different
Speaker:Trist: because you're taking someone
Speaker:Trist: kind of on a ride on the album
Speaker:Trist: in a different way than a live
Speaker:Trist: performance.
Speaker:Trist: kind of tangential, but I had this experience.
Speaker:Trist: I think this is pertinent.
Speaker:Trist: never thought of it till this moment.
Speaker:Trist: So I saw the band, They Might Be Giants.
Speaker:Trist: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Their biggest album is an album called "Flood."
Speaker:Trist: Has the biggest kind of hits from it.
Speaker:Trist: I love this album.
Speaker:Trist: So, well before- This is a
Speaker:Trist: common thing these days is to,
Speaker:Trist: hey, we're going to see, Steely
Speaker:Trist: Dan perform all of "Gaucho," or
Speaker:Trist: we're going to see the Eagles
Speaker:Trist: perform all of "Hotel California."
Speaker:Trist: Like
Speaker:Trist: it's another good marketing tool. Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Hey,
Speaker:Trist: you saw them on the last tour. They
Speaker:Trist: kind of did already play all of Hotel California. But
Speaker:Trist: if we say we're going to play every song from there. We're
Speaker:Trist: playing the full album, etc.. That's a good marketing tool
Speaker:Trist: these days. So,
Speaker:Trist: well, before I was seeing that a lot. Um,
Speaker:Trist: I mean, this is easily 25 years ago, maybe longer. I
Speaker:Trist: saw They Might Be Giants in Boston at this club. And
Speaker:Trist: part of the thing was, hey, we're going to play "Flood" in its
Speaker:Trist: entirety live. Very
Speaker:Trist: excited about that. So
Speaker:Trist: I was excited to hear them anyway. So
Speaker:Trist: right when they came out, before they played anything, came
Speaker:Trist: right out. And
Speaker:Trist: one of the Johns says, "Hey, so here's the deal. We've
Speaker:Trist: done this a few times now, and
Speaker:Trist: the very first time we did it,
Speaker:Trist: we learned two things right away.
Speaker:Trist: One,
Speaker:Trist: just playing the album is not long enough for a concert.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Two, the album order is a terrible concert order."
Speaker:Trist: So but they were so focused on
Speaker:Trist: this cool, niche idea of playing
Speaker:Trist: the song, the album in its
Speaker:Trist: entirety and in order, which is
Speaker:Trist: a cool, fun, okay kind of
Speaker:Trist: musical trick to keep you
Speaker:Trist: interested.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, let's see if we can do this.
Speaker:Trist: There's something to achieve.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, but in the process of
Speaker:Trist: doing it, it was like, oh, this
Speaker:Trist: doesn't as good live like this
Speaker:Trist: doesn't.
Speaker:Trist: It doesn't end like we want.
Speaker:Trist: It doesn't have the right flow as live.
Speaker:Trist: And then also.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, it's only been like an hour and ten minutes and we're gonna
Speaker:Trist: do a full concert.
Speaker:Trist: So here's some other songs that
Speaker:Trist: we didn't plan on playing, you
Speaker:Trist: know.
Speaker:Trist: So they said, don't worry, we will play every song from Flood,
Speaker:Trist: just not in order.
Speaker:Trist: And we'll play some other songs
Speaker:Trist: too, just to give you a full
Speaker:Trist: concert.
Speaker:Trist: So, um, I think that sums up is tangential as that was.
Speaker:Trist: I think.
Speaker:Elaine: That sums up what.
Speaker:Trist: You.
Speaker:Elaine: Were asking.
Speaker:Trist: That fits that topic.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm also kind of curious about where this fits in.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: So one of the things I've been thinking about is the break
Speaker:Elaine: between sides of an LP, right.
Speaker:Elaine: Like this song or this album definitely was, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: pressed down to an LP and or to a single or whatnot.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: And so as we're talking about
Speaker:Elaine: this, there is kind of a natural
Speaker:Elaine: break that comes in an album
Speaker:Elaine: that was created during this
Speaker:Elaine: time period where you actually
Speaker:Elaine: had to get up and flip or, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, you had you were fancy
Speaker:Elaine: enough to get an auto flipper,
Speaker:Elaine: right, to like, flip your
Speaker:Elaine: record.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I'm kind of curious about where you see that flip fitting
Speaker:Elaine: into this album and where this song fits inside of that
Speaker:Elaine: experience, because there, there is like a solid thirty second
Speaker:Elaine: break if you are auto flipping or longer if you have to get up
Speaker:Elaine: and, you know, actually manually flip the record.
Speaker:Trist: Oddly, this is one of the places where I feel like it fits in
Speaker:Trist: almost the same place as it would in concert, because it's
Speaker:Trist: the second to last song.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: So this could be a place right before you're gonna blow it out
Speaker:Trist: and have your big sing along.
Speaker:Trist: Have your big party at the end
Speaker:Trist: of a concert, a big grand
Speaker:Trist: finale.
Speaker:Trist: You slip this like tearjerker heartfelt thing, right?
Speaker:Trist: That's that's a pretty that's a pretty standard spot in a
Speaker:Trist: concert as well.
Speaker:Trist: So, you're throwing me these
Speaker:Trist: curveballs about this full
Speaker:Trist: album?
Speaker:Trist: As I'm thinking about it, that actually fits almost the same
Speaker:Elaine: And I.
Speaker:Elaine: Think, you know, some good
Speaker:Elaine: thoughts about the intersection
Speaker:Elaine: of technology, like listening
Speaker:Elaine: technology at.
Speaker:Elaine: The time.
Speaker:Elaine: With the experience of listening to an album.
Speaker:Trist: Well, I was going to that was
Speaker:Trist: another tangent I was going to
Speaker:Trist: go on a little bit is because -
Speaker:Trist: more than just fitting the time
Speaker:Trist: into each.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, okay.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, great.
Speaker:Trist: These five songs are what I would want the first five songs
Speaker:Trist: to be, but they won't fit.
Speaker:Trist: So okay, so is it only four songs?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, but now the other side has too many songs.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, no. I like the order.
Speaker:Trist: Now you need to.
Speaker:Trist: You need to sacrifice.
Speaker:Trist: So I love this order.
Speaker:Trist: But that order just won't fit on two sides of a single record.
Speaker:Trist: So I like the idea that
Speaker:Trist: technology shaped, some of these
Speaker:Trist: things.
Speaker:Trist: You know, in previous episodes we've talked about, oh, pop
Speaker:Trist: songs are like three minutes, three and a half minutes.
Speaker:Trist: Well, the original 78 acetate records.
Speaker:Trist: Like, that's how long they were.
Speaker:Elaine: That's why pop
Speaker:Trist: songs ended up being that long.
Speaker:Elaine: Wow.
Speaker:Trist: Because that's what that's where they fit.
Speaker:Trist: So. And that's just something
Speaker:Trist: that even though, we've
Speaker:Trist: graduated from that, a long,
Speaker:Trist: long time ago, that thing is
Speaker:Trist: just kind of cemented into
Speaker:Trist: passed down generation to
Speaker:Trist: generation.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, because of the influence of
Speaker:Elaine: radio and advertisement and all sorts of like, content.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, that's
Speaker:Trist: what everyone got used to is that amount of time.
Speaker:Trist: And so it hasn't really evolved as much as it could.
Speaker:Trist: Of course, it's it's not cut and
Speaker:Trist: dried like that anymore, but
Speaker:Trist: that's where that three, three
Speaker:Trist: and a half minute thing comes
Speaker:Trist: from.
Speaker:Trist: actually I say don't check me out.
Speaker:Trist: But do look it up and see if I'm right in recalling that thing.
Speaker:Trist: But I've always loved the idea that the technology changes.
Speaker:Trist: even with the advent of CDs, the ability to have such low end,
Speaker:Trist: because that really low end would make the needle jump out
Speaker:Trist: of the record.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. So, so.
Speaker:Trist: In a lot of- No shock that the advent of the blowing up of of
Speaker:Trist: more hip hop and R&B and that kind of music that has a lot of
Speaker:Trist: low end, really blew up more right at the round of time of
Speaker:Trist: the advent of the CD.
Speaker:Trist: Sure, those still were on on vinyl, but also that's why the
Speaker:Trist: big 12" singles, because there's the grooves could be wider on a
Speaker:Trist: 12" single, which is why those big dance records would be on
Speaker:Trist: 12" singles instead of a 45.
Speaker:Elaine: Wow.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. This is I mean, we could.
Speaker:Elaine: Spend an entire episode.
Speaker:Elaine: Just.
Speaker:Elaine: On recording technology, but the
Speaker:Trist: one phrase you said.
Speaker:Elaine: About, like, the
Speaker:Trist: recording technology, I'm like, yes, it's so true.
Speaker:Trist: So you're right on.
Speaker:Elaine: I love it.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, well, let's, finish up the section.
Speaker:Elaine: I just wanted to call out just
Speaker:Elaine: some of the things that I heard
Speaker:Elaine: musically because just- Holy
Speaker:Elaine: cows, just chord, you know, you
Speaker:Elaine: were talking about chord
Speaker:Elaine: progressions.
Speaker:Elaine: They were unexpected and also
Speaker:Elaine: something that was absolutely
Speaker:Elaine: fascinating.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, I looked it up on someone else who had chorded it, and I
Speaker:Elaine: was like, okay, you know, where where is it?
Speaker:Elaine: Certainly there's like, you know, goes like I to IV a bunch
Speaker:Elaine: of times and there's ii minor.
Speaker:Elaine: That's all very standard.
Speaker:Elaine: But then it went into like a VI augmented and I'm like whoa.
Speaker:Elaine: And then flat VII major, which I think it it's unusual, but it's
Speaker:Elaine: something that you could hear.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, but then again, that six aug
Speaker:Elaine: and then that flat 6-9 and I'm
Speaker:Elaine: like, whew, okay, we've Stevie
Speaker:Elaine: Wonder is.
Speaker:Elaine: Just pulling.
Speaker:Elaine: Out stuff.
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Trist: He does not care.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And it was just fascinating to listen to.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that it made that as
Speaker:Elaine: a musician like a lot more
Speaker:Elaine: interesting to me to hear the
Speaker:Elaine: music track the vocals so
Speaker:Elaine: closely and in a way that was
Speaker:Elaine: unusual.
Speaker:Elaine: But to your point, like what you
Speaker:Elaine: said earlier, it was unusual but
Speaker:Elaine: not distracting.
Speaker:Elaine: It, I think, added to the sense of melancholy, the fact that
Speaker:Elaine: there was this augmented um chord in there and that- There
Speaker:Elaine: were so many chromatics in there, it just sounded a little
Speaker:Elaine: bit, the chromatic down is like, oh, the emotions are going down.
Speaker:Elaine: It's like.
Speaker:Elaine: I just.
Speaker:Elaine: Felt like very artistic.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, so yeah, never distracting.
Speaker:Trist: Always, always supporting.
Speaker:Trist: What the what the vibe is, what
Speaker:Trist: the story is, what the message
Speaker:Trist: is, what the feeling of that
Speaker:Trist: lyric is.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, now we're going to this
Speaker:Trist: verse and this is where now it's
Speaker:Trist: going to, change keys to this on
Speaker:Trist: this verse always feels
Speaker:Trist: appropriate.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, any last thoughts here before we wrap up?
Speaker:Trist: Oh man, it's just a heartbreak.
Speaker:Trist: Also, another telling thing as I
Speaker:Trist: was looking through this, going
Speaker:Trist: through like the YouTube, like
Speaker:Trist: just the regular posting from
Speaker:Trist: the record label of it, the
Speaker:Trist: YouTube comments from years and
Speaker:Trist: years and years and years of
Speaker:Trist: people.
Speaker:Trist: So really telling how on point.
Speaker:Trist: This is the number of people
Speaker:Trist: like, oh, it makes me, you know,
Speaker:Trist: this one really makes me miss my
Speaker:Trist: mother.
Speaker:Trist: I lost her in the summertime and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker:Trist: Um, how many people came here from the one scene from this
Speaker:Trist: movie that they used it in, from this one TV episode.
Speaker:Trist: From this one, there's like four or five pop culture kind of
Speaker:Trist: things, like, oh, who's here from this episode of this show?
Speaker:Trist: Who's here from this movie?
Speaker:Trist: a big scene in a movie, Poetic Justice, uh, with Janet Jackson
Speaker:Trist: in the movie, oddly enough.
Speaker:Trist: She.
Speaker:Trist: And then he actually, Stevie
Speaker:Trist: actually sang this at Michael
Speaker:Trist: Jackson's memorial.
Speaker:Elaine: Uh, for him.
Speaker:Elaine: So, you know, just.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, right.
Speaker:Trist: You know.
Speaker:Elaine: Um.
Speaker:Trist: So it's, I mean, I mean, wow, like, just seeing these
Speaker:Trist: comments, even some of them.
Speaker:Trist: Just small little.
Speaker:Trist: Oh. Reminds me.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, my, my, I lost my sister in
Speaker:Trist: the summer of blah, blah, blah,
Speaker:Trist: blah, blah.
Speaker:Trist: You know, like, just list out.
Speaker:Trist: I mean, it just goes on forever, um, with these things.
Speaker:Trist: So it really shows you again how it's maybe not the song.
Speaker:Trist: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Name me a Stevie Wonder ballad.
Speaker:Trist: You know, ask, ask anyone on the
Speaker:Trist: street and they're not going to
Speaker:Trist: maybe think of this one right
Speaker:Trist: away.
Speaker:Trist: It's going to be my Cherie Amour.
Speaker:Trist: It's going to be.
Speaker:Trist: I just called to say I love you.
Speaker:Elaine: It's going to be.
Speaker:Trist: You know, those other ones.
Speaker:Trist: Again, all great songs, you
Speaker:Trist: know, lots of great ballads,
Speaker:Trist: amazing ballads.
Speaker:Trist: But this one really, really gets you.
Speaker:Trist: Uh, I remember I love playing this for people for the first
Speaker:Trist: time and just seeing their face almost looking at me like, why
Speaker:Trist: did you do that to me today?
Speaker:Elaine: I was
Speaker:Trist: in such a great
Speaker:Elaine: mood, you know.
Speaker:Trist: Um,
Speaker:Elaine: This is something that also
Speaker:Elaine: reminds us, what you're just
Speaker:Elaine: sharing about the role of music
Speaker:Elaine: in pop culture and the role of
Speaker:Elaine: music to anchor humanity in
Speaker:Elaine: history, right?
Speaker:Elaine: Like the relationship that we have.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, yeah, I think-
Speaker:Elaine: thank you so much for the
Speaker:Elaine: suggestion.
Speaker:Elaine: It was a great one.
Speaker:Elaine: And it's time for us to move into our next segment, which is.
Speaker:Trist: Mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: The.
Speaker:Elaine: Mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: All right, so this week's mailbag entry comes from Threads
Speaker:Elaine: from the Musicians tag there.
Speaker:Elaine: It is from @musicthrume from September 30, 2025.
Speaker:Elaine: And the question is, "How did
Speaker:Elaine: you know that music is your true
Speaker:Elaine: calling?"
Speaker:Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker:Trist: Um. Bad answer.
Speaker:Trist: I mean, but I think there is some element of you just know.
Speaker:Trist: It's a terrible kind of answer,
Speaker:Trist: but, there are other little "you just know."
Speaker:Trist: And then
Speaker:Trist: you gather evidence along the way confirming or, you know, disproving
Speaker:Trist: the thought that you just what you just knew was right
Speaker:Trist: or wrong. Man, how
Speaker:Trist: do you know that music is your true calling? One of
Speaker:Trist: the things would be when you just,
Speaker:Trist: you feel like your life just
Speaker:Trist: isn't complete without it. Or
Speaker:Trist: when
Speaker:Trist: you just have to do it, when in
Speaker:Trist: so many ways, it seems like the
Speaker:Trist: lesser or not as wise choice. It
Speaker:Trist: goes
Speaker:Trist: against a bunch of conventional, monetary, physical, geographical
Speaker:Trist: choices, but still feels like it's the overriding thing
Speaker:Trist: that wins. So you
Speaker:Trist: do the musical thing anyway. Like those
Speaker:Trist: are some of the things that come to mind.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to think about because my first
Speaker:Elaine: question is, how do you know that you only have one calling?
Speaker:Elaine: And is, is that something like is a calling a thing?
Speaker:Elaine: I was listening to another podcast and someone had
Speaker:Elaine: mentioned that, like calling is something that happens from
Speaker:Elaine: outside you, where someone makes an observation about you that
Speaker:Elaine: points you in a particular direction and says, oh, you
Speaker:Elaine: might have a calling for this.
Speaker:Elaine: It's not necessarily something
Speaker:Elaine: that you find internally, which
Speaker:Elaine: I thought was interesting,
Speaker:Elaine: right?
Speaker:Elaine: It was a fascinating concept to think about calling as being
Speaker:Elaine: something that is external to you, like someone else is
Speaker:Elaine: calling you to do x, y, or z. and I think also that, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: something like music.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think for me, I am a
Speaker:Elaine: person who is multidisciplinary,
Speaker:Elaine: right?
Speaker:Elaine: Music is not my only creative outlet.
Speaker:Elaine: It's not my only professional outlet.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, certainly working in
Speaker:Elaine: software and also, being a
Speaker:Elaine: published author, there are lots
Speaker:Elaine: of different areas in which I
Speaker:Elaine: do, like, execute that creative
Speaker:Elaine: calling.
Speaker:Elaine: But music has always been a core piece of that creativity for me,
Speaker:Elaine: and it's hard for me to discern whether that's because I started
Speaker:Elaine: music so young and continued with it so long.
Speaker:Elaine: So it's just kind of natural
Speaker:Elaine: because I've had, decades of
Speaker:Elaine: experience as a musician at this
Speaker:Elaine: point in time, starting from
Speaker:Elaine: when I was six years old, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, getting formal piano
Speaker:Elaine: lessons.
Speaker:Elaine: And so how much of that is a
Speaker:Elaine: part of my identity, or who I
Speaker:Elaine: am, or what I bring to the
Speaker:Elaine: world?
Speaker:Elaine: I also wonder whether the word
Speaker:Elaine: calling is maybe a little
Speaker:Elaine: misleading, because, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: there is something about a
Speaker:Elaine: calling that relates to identity
Speaker:Elaine: or relates to purpose, where I
Speaker:Elaine: don't necessarily feel like that
Speaker:Elaine: reflects a true, like full human
Speaker:Elaine: experience.
Speaker:Elaine: It could be like a part of you.
Speaker:Elaine: But who are you when music goes away?
Speaker:Elaine: And I think about like, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, this, this terrible future
Speaker:Elaine: that I have, like aging, for
Speaker:Elaine: instance.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: Is there a world in which I might not be able to create or
Speaker:Elaine: enjoy music anymore?
Speaker:Elaine: That would be a terrible future.
Speaker:Elaine: But at the same time, would I still be the same person?
Speaker:Elaine: And you know, would I still
Speaker:Elaine: bring the same value to
Speaker:Elaine: humanity?
Speaker:Elaine: Would I still find enjoyment in other people?
Speaker:Elaine: And I would have to say, yes.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, like music is an integral part of who I am, but
Speaker:Elaine: it doesn't define me.
Speaker:Elaine: And if for some, tragic reason, I were to lose my ability to
Speaker:Elaine: create music, I would still have a creative purpose and I would
Speaker:Elaine: still be me.
Speaker:Elaine: And so, so I think that there's something in there that I'm
Speaker:Elaine: still trying to sort through.
Speaker:Elaine: And this might be a half baked idea at this point in time, but
Speaker:Elaine: I would say that, music is something that I have pursued
Speaker:Elaine: and has become a part of how I engage with the world.
Speaker:Elaine: And in some ways, maybe that is
Speaker:Elaine: my calling, but it's not my only
Speaker:Elaine: creative pursuit.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that's part of the
Speaker:Elaine: reason I struggle with the
Speaker:Elaine: question.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Um, kind of where you started there.
Speaker:Trist: Uh, is it just something that you want to do, or is it
Speaker:Trist: something people have pointed out that it might be you, and I
Speaker:Trist: think mine was a mixture of those things for sure.
Speaker:Trist: I always, as a kid at least,
Speaker:Trist: always just gravitated toward it
Speaker:Trist: naturally, just wanted to and
Speaker:Trist: enjoyed it.
Speaker:Trist: but then eventually, you know, had adults telling me that, that
Speaker:Trist: I was seemed I was natural at it or it just it I was drawn to it
Speaker:Trist: easily, that I fit naturally somehow or something like that.
Speaker:Trist: So maybe a little bit of all of those things, good teachers who
Speaker:Trist: steered me in a direction where going into high school music is
Speaker:Trist: really, really fun.
Speaker:Trist: I love doing music, love being in choir.
Speaker:Trist: But entering school, I didn't have the thought that I was
Speaker:Trist: going to have music be a part of what I made my living doing.
Speaker:Trist: Um, didn't.
Speaker:Trist: Not even an inkling that that was something I could even do.
Speaker:Trist: It was something that I enjoyed that I felt like I was good at.
Speaker:Trist: But am I going to be a lawyer or a doctor?
Speaker:Trist: And then separately over here was another conversation.
Speaker:Trist: Boy, I sure love music.
Speaker:Trist: And they weren't like my brain
Speaker:Trist: didn't have the idea that that
Speaker:Trist: could be in the same
Speaker:Trist: conversation until I was in high
Speaker:Trist: school and just had a teacher
Speaker:Trist: that could show you the way that
Speaker:Trist: it's not all about like being
Speaker:Trist: the star on stage, the main
Speaker:Trist: performer, um, that that world
Speaker:Trist: includes all kinds of,
Speaker:Trist: arrangers, producers, recording
Speaker:Trist: engineers, all just there's so
Speaker:Trist: much, teaching and really even
Speaker:Trist: going into college was Just
Speaker:Trist: really not looking to be a
Speaker:Trist: performer.
Speaker:Trist: Just saying.
Speaker:Trist: Hey, well, if that comes about, I'll do that.
Speaker:Trist: But teaching is the thing that I'm going to be into and then
Speaker:Trist: just things go where they go.
Speaker:Trist: So he really helped me, just see all the other possibilities that
Speaker:Trist: weren't like, the stardom or bust that, you know, the
Speaker:Trist: American Idol type thing, like, oh, come on the show.
Speaker:Trist: And if you win this show, then you can be, you know, just that
Speaker:Trist: whole thing is so depressing.
Speaker:Trist: Be on "The Voice."
Speaker:Trist: Those the voice.
Speaker:Trist: There's just the one.
Speaker:Trist: So you win this and then you're actually then you're going to
Speaker:Trist: it's like everybody on there sounds amazing and could have a
Speaker:Trist: great career or not, just depending on if the other things
Speaker:Trist: that you need work out for you, etc.. So, um, yeah, I think I
Speaker:Trist: have some inherent problems with the question as well as you've
Speaker:Trist: just kind of expounded upon.
Speaker:Trist: I kind of stick by my, my original thought in terms of my
Speaker:Trist: reading of the question, like, uh, I probably I knew somehow
Speaker:Trist: was a better choice not to do the music thing.
Speaker:Trist: But then I did the music thing anyway.
Speaker:Trist: that's the point when you start
Speaker:Trist: doing that more that you
Speaker:Trist: realize, yeah, I just have to do
Speaker:Trist: that.
Speaker:Elaine: You know.
Speaker:Elaine: It's interesting because you and I, you know, from a career
Speaker:Elaine: perspective, went down very different paths, right?
Speaker:Elaine: Because I went the industry path
Speaker:Elaine: and did not choose music as my
Speaker:Elaine: primary thing, Similar kind of
Speaker:Elaine: parental advice.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that there is still a route forward.
Speaker:Elaine: The way I rationalized it is that I would have more time for
Speaker:Elaine: music if I didn't have to worry so much about, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: finances or whatnot.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I think that there is
Speaker:Elaine: something in there where it is
Speaker:Elaine: possible to be a musician and
Speaker:Elaine: have that as your calling
Speaker:Elaine: without it being your full time
Speaker:Elaine: thing.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, your full time gig.
Speaker:Elaine: And so, yeah, anyway, I think
Speaker:Elaine: that it's something really
Speaker:Elaine: interesting to think about as we
Speaker:Elaine: are thinking about the music
Speaker:Elaine: industry, as we're thinking
Speaker:Elaine: about issues of identity, as
Speaker:Elaine: we're thinking about, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: issues of how we as musicians
Speaker:Elaine: engage with the world and with
Speaker:Elaine: one another, that it's an
Speaker:Elaine: interesting question for us to
Speaker:Elaine: grapple with.
Speaker:Elaine: And so.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I'd love to.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. Um, I would love to hear
Speaker:Elaine: what other people have to say
Speaker:Elaine: about this.
Speaker:Elaine: So if you see a post on
Speaker:Elaine: Instagram or if you see if you
Speaker:Elaine: just want to email us, please do
Speaker:Elaine: that.
Speaker:Elaine: Instagram is @themusiciansloupe L O U P E and our email address
Speaker:Elaine: is that same thing.
Speaker:Elaine: themusiciansloupe at gmail.com.
Speaker:Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker:Trist: Another great question.
Speaker:Elaine: Yep. And with that we are a wrap on this episode.
Speaker:Elaine: Thanks so much for joining us this week.
Speaker:Elaine: Please give us a like, give us a subscribe.
Speaker:Elaine: Tell your friends about us.
Speaker:Elaine: We would love to have more
Speaker:Elaine: people participating in our
Speaker:Elaine: community.
Speaker:Trist: Thanks so much.
Speaker:Trist: See you next time.
Speaker:Elaine: I totally biffed it, but that's okay.
Speaker:Elaine: I will live, I will live.
Speaker:Trist: Do you think there might be music through me?
Speaker:Trist: Just as you said "throom,"
Speaker:Elaine: I just visualizing it, thinking you think it's through me.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, let me say that again.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm totally.
Speaker:Speaker 5: Going to.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, like a musician's loom.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: I think actually, you might be right.
Speaker:Trist: Seriously, that song though, right?
Speaker:Trist: Seriously.
Speaker:Trist: That song.
Speaker:Elaine: If nothing else, we just have a whole bunch of bloopers.
Speaker:Elaine: And, you know, like, what was I going to say about this?
