Anthems, harmonies, and unexpected soul: Leap of Faith (Kenny Loggins)
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG0eW6zHoyc
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/2thU0AOHF6C9Iwnrch1oHA?si=7a2cab7b25b848a3
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/if-you-believe/202777729
- Amazon - https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B00138CRKY?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_dpAh3rAcWNutnxKDLPr1dx5Z3&trackAsin=B00137RMKK
Key takeaways
- Kenny Loggins' song "If You Believe" from his 1991 album Leap of Faith features a unique a cappella intro that features three female singers who all had successes as background singers and successes as solo artists: Sheryl Crow, Siedah Garrett, and Ruth Pointer
- This song can be taken in context of the world history in the late 1980s and early 1990s, as well as in the context of Loggins’ career
- In the Mailbag segment, Trist and Elaine discuss the importance of external feedback, both in individual and group settings, in helping musicians grow
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Well, we have (ugh!) a favorite.
Speaker:Trist: Well, I know they're all favorites.
Speaker:Trist: That's what it should be called.
Speaker:Trist: The podcast should be called "Trist's Favorite Songs."
Speaker:Trist: Um, no. So this is from Kenny Loggins.
Speaker:Trist: (Okay.) So, you know, we know about him.
Speaker:Trist: Most people think about him just in terms of, uh, all the darn
Speaker:Trist: soundtrack songs he had in the 80s, etc., (One hundred
Speaker:Trist: percent.) But, um, as you know, because I've sent you this ahead
Speaker:Trist: of time and you gave a listen, what can you tell me about the
Speaker:Trist: beginning of this song?
Speaker:Elaine: Ah, what can I tell you?
Speaker:Elaine: Well, it has a really
Speaker:Elaine: interesting a cappella section
Speaker:Elaine: that sounds, you know, I don't
Speaker:Elaine: even know how to quantify the
Speaker:Elaine: sound.
Speaker:Elaine: Definitely, has a lot more soul
Speaker:Elaine: than I would kind of expect from
Speaker:Elaine: such a rocker like Kenny, Kenny
Speaker:Elaine: Loggins and.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Okay. What if I told you that other than Kenny Loggins singing
Speaker:Trist: the lyrics that there are no male voices on it?
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Trist: So there's definitely a reason you thought it was soulful.
Speaker:Trist: Because three singers that are on there include Sheryl Crow.
Speaker:Elaine: Ooh.
Speaker:Trist: Siedah Garrett.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Both singers who sang backgrounds for Michael Jackson.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: And Siedah Garrett also co-wrote
Speaker:Trist: "Man in the Mirror" and sang the
Speaker:Trist: duet with him on uh, I Just
Speaker:Trist: Can't Stop Loving You, that
Speaker:Trist: song.
Speaker:Trist: She co-wrote that and sang the duet with him.
Speaker:Trist: So the two of them are
Speaker:Trist: background singers, and the key
Speaker:Trist: element that I'm getting at is
Speaker:Trist: that low voice is the low
Speaker:Trist: pointer sister.
Speaker:Trist: Ruth pointer.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, that was not the trio that I was expecting, but amazing.
Speaker:Elaine: So tell us more about the song.
Speaker:Elaine: Like, which one are we listening to?
Speaker:Trist: This is "If You Believe," on his
Speaker:Trist: album from 1991 called "Leap of Faith."
Speaker:Elaine: okay, so we are about to break
Speaker:Elaine: for a brief moment to listen to
Speaker:Elaine: the song.
Speaker:Elaine: All of the links are going to be in our show notes.
Speaker:Elaine: So pause us right as you're hearing our music.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we do, Trist, can you talk a little bit about how we
Speaker:Elaine: should be listening to music?
Speaker:Trist: Absolutely.
Speaker:Trist: I like to take this time, if you can, to just upgrade, give
Speaker:Trist: yourself an upgrade.
Speaker:Trist: Everyone loves an upgrade.
Speaker:Trist: I'm a frequent flyer.
Speaker:Trist: I love an upgrade.
Speaker:Trist: Give yourself an upgrade and if
Speaker:Trist: you can, unless you're, you
Speaker:Trist: know, walking around or in your
Speaker:Trist: car and you can't really do it,
Speaker:Trist: get yourself the best listening
Speaker:Trist: possible.
Speaker:Trist: So get the nice headphones, put
Speaker:Trist: it on the nice system, put the
Speaker:Trist: car settings on the best
Speaker:Trist: listening possible.
Speaker:Trist: Turn off your phone.
Speaker:Trist: Don't pay attention to anything but this song.
Speaker:Trist: When you give a listen, upgrade your listening.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so we're going to pause
Speaker:Elaine: right now and we will be right
Speaker:Elaine: back.
Speaker:Elaine: Welcome back everyone.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so "If You Believe," by Kenny Loggins.
Speaker:Elaine: Why did you choose the song, Trist?
Speaker:Trist: Man, I just, I don't know, it's one of my feel good songs.
Speaker:Trist: It's just motivating.
Speaker:Trist: I can't even say that I've ever
Speaker:Trist: really, really, really dug into
Speaker:Trist: the deeper meanings of all of
Speaker:Trist: the lyrics.
Speaker:Trist: I get the general vibe.
Speaker:Trist: I'm a sucker for those chords at the end.
Speaker:Trist: The vamp, a kids choir, the cool intro that's a cappella.
Speaker:Trist: there's so much about it I like, I like, I really.
Speaker:Trist: I really just dig it.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. You know, that a cappella intro was part of the reason
Speaker:Elaine: when I first heard the song.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: So when?
Speaker:Elaine: 8 years ago?
Speaker:Elaine: Something like that.
Speaker:Elaine: One of the things that I was thinking about was, "Oh, this
Speaker:Elaine: song is probably the reason why Trist recommended it to me"
Speaker:Elaine: because of the vocals and because of just the way that it
Speaker:Elaine: was different, I think, than your typical pop song.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, when I recommended the the
Speaker:Trist: whole album, the Leap of Faith
Speaker:Trist: album, right.
Speaker:Elaine: That's right.
Speaker:Elaine: You recommended the entire album to me, and I listened to the
Speaker:Elaine: entire thing over the course of a couple of weeks.
Speaker:Elaine: And this a cappella segment at
Speaker:Elaine: the very beginning was one where
Speaker:Elaine: I was like, oh, this is this is
Speaker:Elaine: why he recommended this album,
Speaker:Elaine: partially because I think you've
Speaker:Elaine: done the same thing for other
Speaker:Elaine: albums as well, where there have
Speaker:Elaine: been other albums with really
Speaker:Elaine: interesting choral backgrounds
Speaker:Elaine: or, you know, vocal pieces,
Speaker:Elaine: people who have stepped in, to
Speaker:Elaine: sing Seeing parts or to be
Speaker:Elaine: featured artists on certain
Speaker:Elaine: albums.
Speaker:Elaine: But there was a lot more in there that I was very surprised
Speaker:Elaine: to hear on my nth time through.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't remember, but definitely in a deeper listen through,
Speaker:Elaine: which is what we're trying to do here in this podcast.
Speaker:Elaine: So, you know, some of the areas
Speaker:Elaine: that I was maybe a little more
Speaker:Elaine: surprised to hear about were the
Speaker:Elaine: chord changes.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, it's not your typical pop song where you know, you
Speaker:Elaine: have exactly the same chords over and over and over again.
Speaker:Elaine: There's something slightly
Speaker:Elaine: different about each time
Speaker:Elaine: through that I thought was
Speaker:Elaine: really interesting.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. you know, this album comes
Speaker:Trist: definitely, as I mentioned
Speaker:Trist: before, kind of after his, "I will have a song on every hit movie soundtrack"
Speaker:Trist: part of his life, which I'm sure
Speaker:Trist: his bank account loves. And,
Speaker:Trist: you know, it's not that those
Speaker:Trist: songs weren't
Speaker:Trist: good songs. I think He was really good at that job,
Speaker:Trist: for Caddyshack and, uh, Top Gun, etc..
Speaker:Trist: All those movies, those are
Speaker:Trist: just great classic songs. But this
Speaker:Trist: is a stereotypical thing we
Speaker:Trist: hear about.
Speaker:Trist: "Yeah, make the label a bunch of money and then maybe they'll just let you do artistically whatever the heck you want to do."
Speaker:Trist: So whether that's true or not, whether
Speaker:Trist: that's true or not, that's
Speaker:Trist: my that's my in my
Speaker:Trist: world, that's what's happening here is
Speaker:Trist: he's
Speaker:Trist: like, hey, I've done plenty for
Speaker:Trist: you. Now I'm just going
Speaker:Trist: to make the album I like with
Speaker:Trist: musicians I love and do
Speaker:Trist: what I want to do, and
Speaker:Trist: do 6 and 7 and 8
Speaker:Trist: minute songs instead of 3 and 4
Speaker:Trist: minute songs. So, um, that's kind
Speaker:Trist: of where this happens in '91.
Speaker:Elaine: Ah, '91.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. Really interesting time in American history, I'd say, but
Speaker:Elaine: also in musical history.
Speaker:Elaine: I think it's really interesting that Sheryl Crow is singing
Speaker:Elaine: backgrounds on this, just because I think of her as an
Speaker:Elaine: artist from, you know, not '91.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm thinking of her as an artist
Speaker:Elaine: in late 90s, early 2000s, really
Speaker:Elaine: coming into her own solo, um,
Speaker:Elaine: you know, career by that point
Speaker:Elaine: in time.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I think that first big
Speaker:Trist: album for her was even like '94,
Speaker:Trist: '95.
Speaker:Trist: so, yeah, like so many, you know, brand new artists, they've
Speaker:Trist: been kicking around trying to do it for so long.
Speaker:Trist: Like I said before, sang backgrounds with Michael
Speaker:Trist: Jackson, studio singer.
Speaker:Trist: Matter of fact, there's even a duo on this Kenny Loggins album
Speaker:Trist: where she's the duet partner and the most stringent, uh, Sheryl
Speaker:Trist: Crow fan probably wouldn't even necessarily recognize that it's
Speaker:Trist: her, just a chameleon vocally, doing whatever the song calls
Speaker:Trist: for before she's doing her own thing on her album.
Speaker:Trist: I think that's interesting as well as a side note.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, it is also interesting
Speaker:Elaine: though, listening to this song,
Speaker:Elaine: you know, there's something
Speaker:Elaine: about the instruments that are
Speaker:Elaine: chosen here, specifically the
Speaker:Elaine: keys that really bring me back
Speaker:Elaine: to kind of the late 80s, early
Speaker:Elaine: 90s.
Speaker:Elaine: It still kind of harkens to that era, and I couldn't exactly tell
Speaker:Elaine: whether- I think it had to do with the synth sound sounding
Speaker:Elaine: like it had a deeper attack to it, just like a stronger attack.
Speaker:Elaine: It almost sounded a little bit like a harpsichord in some
Speaker:Elaine: places where it had that just like very sharp attack, and that
Speaker:Elaine: combined with some of the sustain in there, it just made
Speaker:Elaine: me think a lot about the type of music that we're listening to in
Speaker:Elaine: the late '80s, early '90s.
Speaker:Elaine: So I just thought that was interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: Is that something that you heard as well?
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I like how that's combined with also actual real acoustic
Speaker:Trist: piano and real organ.
Speaker:Trist: So especially because while
Speaker:Trist: there's no religious content, it
Speaker:Trist: there's a little gospelly feel
Speaker:Trist: in some of it when you add that
Speaker:Trist: organ sound, and it's such an
Speaker:Trist: uplifting thing.
Speaker:Trist: So even if it's kind of
Speaker:Trist: non-denominational, just good
Speaker:Trist: feeling.
Speaker:Trist: It's a it's in the same ballpark as that, especially when you add
Speaker:Trist: those those sounds.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. And I like what you're talking about because I feel
Speaker:Elaine: like there are a couple of different choral genres that are
Speaker:Elaine: mixed in here.
Speaker:Elaine: Like you've got this
Speaker:Elaine: enthusiastic kids choir, you
Speaker:Elaine: have, an adult choir that's
Speaker:Elaine: behind them.
Speaker:Elaine: There are some vocals interleaved throughout, and then
Speaker:Elaine: that very strong introductory like vocal piece, that.
Speaker:Trist: Which isn't really like any of the rest of the song.
Speaker:Elaine: Interestingly, it's not and it really stands out and I listened
Speaker:Elaine: to that a cappella section a couple of different times just
Speaker:Elaine: to think about some of the some of the lessons that I've learned
Speaker:Elaine: arranging for a cappella over the years and just how much I
Speaker:Elaine: still have to learn.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: Um, you know, you were talking in a previous episode about the
Speaker:Elaine: vocal band or contemporary a cappella background where it's
Speaker:Elaine: more like, hey, you know, how do you sound more like instruments.
Speaker:Elaine: You have like your your vocal percussion, you have your vocal
Speaker:Elaine: bass, you have a lot of oohs or like, you know, horns going on
Speaker:Elaine: in the background.
Speaker:Elaine: You have people doing harmonica,
Speaker:Elaine: etc. and, you know, this
Speaker:Elaine: introductory section was very
Speaker:Elaine: human.
Speaker:Elaine: There were a lot more, pieces
Speaker:Elaine: where people, a lot like
Speaker:Elaine: everyone was singing the words,
Speaker:Elaine: the lyrics.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: As opposed to singing oohs in the background.
Speaker:Elaine: But it swapped back and forth
Speaker:Elaine: between that, where sometimes
Speaker:Elaine: you had the voices doing more
Speaker:Elaine: textural stuff in the background
Speaker:Elaine: as a soloist was singing in
Speaker:Elaine: front, and then sometimes it was
Speaker:Elaine: more like a four part choral or
Speaker:Elaine: barbershop kind of experience
Speaker:Elaine: where, you know, everyone's
Speaker:Elaine: singing the lyrics at the same
Speaker:Elaine: time.
Speaker:Elaine: There isn't even any extra thing
Speaker:Elaine: that's going on top of it to
Speaker:Elaine: give a little more texture to
Speaker:Elaine: it.
Speaker:Elaine: So I just thought that was really interesting as I was
Speaker:Elaine: listening to it.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I think my little anecdote
Speaker:Trist: about Ruth Pointer singing the
Speaker:Trist: low part on there, I was working
Speaker:Trist: at a record store at the time it
Speaker:Trist: came out, and I remember hearing
Speaker:Trist: the intro and I of course, I was
Speaker:Trist: obsessed with anything a cappella.
Speaker:Trist: So
Speaker:Trist: I ran over to where the liner notes were because I was looking for
Speaker:Trist: who the low singer was. And,
Speaker:Trist: you know, it's Kenny Loggins and Siedah Garrett and Sheryl
Speaker:Trist: Crow and Ruth Pointer, and I'm like, cool, but who's the
Speaker:Trist: what's the low voice? And
Speaker:Trist: then I when I realized Ruth Pointer,
Speaker:Trist: I was like, oh, wait a minute.
Speaker:Trist: I
Speaker:Trist: remember those Pointer Sisters songs when they had, that song "Automatic,"
Speaker:Trist: which you may not have heard of, but she's like.
Speaker:Trist: No, no, no no no. Dun dun dun dun.
Speaker:Trist: The lead vocal is like right in the middle of my voice range.
Speaker:Trist: (Wow.) So they always were known
Speaker:Trist: for having a broad, you know,
Speaker:Trist: they had those the early Pointer
Speaker:Trist: Sisters.
Speaker:Trist: They were actually four of them on some early jazz recordings.
Speaker:Trist: So there's always this lower voice.
Speaker:Trist: And I thought, oh, you know what?
Speaker:Trist: I bet that's her.
Speaker:Trist: So I always tell my female friends, I was like, yeah, sing
Speaker:Trist: along with us and see if you can sing those low notes.
Speaker:Elaine: 100% no, unless I have, unless I have some kind of a chest cold,
Speaker:Elaine: in which case, you know, the best I've been able to get is a
Speaker:Elaine: B flat down there.
Speaker:Trist: But anyway, I just always think that's cool, but that's not the
Speaker:Trist: only thing that's cool about it.
Speaker:Trist: The music is super cool, the arranging is really nice.
Speaker:Trist: That's just an extra little thing I love about it.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. I also think that there's something about the feel of the
Speaker:Elaine: song, like you were talking about it being a feel good song.
Speaker:Elaine: It has a very bouncy sound to it, you know?
Speaker:Elaine: It's a very mid-tempo, bouncy
Speaker:Elaine: and not a very typical, kind of
Speaker:Elaine: like what you would consider
Speaker:Elaine: rock.
Speaker:Elaine: But at the same time, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: Pharrell's "Happy," for
Speaker:Elaine: instance, was not necessarily
Speaker:Elaine: something that you would think
Speaker:Elaine: of as like typical rock, but it
Speaker:Elaine: had a very peppy feel to it as
Speaker:Elaine: well.
Speaker:Elaine: So yeah, I just thought it was interesting how the bass really
Speaker:Elaine: carried that bounce.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was listening very
Speaker:Elaine: carefully to how the bass was
Speaker:Elaine: doing.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, it was like very hard on the one.
Speaker:Elaine: And then there was something right in that interim, like one
Speaker:Elaine: and a half, kind of like boom, boom, you know, that led to that
Speaker:Elaine: sense of bounce.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that led me to thinking about like, how each
Speaker:Elaine: instrument contributes to the feel of a particular song.
Speaker:Elaine: So, I mean, I'm kind of curious about what you think about that.
Speaker:Trist: Absolutely.
Speaker:Trist: How they how they use those textures.
Speaker:Trist: That's where the producer comes
Speaker:Trist: in, like, okay, what's the
Speaker:Trist: lyric?
Speaker:Trist: What's the uplifting thing about this that we're going to add?
Speaker:Trist: Oh yeah, I'm going to add that that extra vibrato that comes in
Speaker:Trist: from that organ sound is going to give this feel.
Speaker:Trist: And the actual piano is going to be okay.
Speaker:Trist: It's going to give this section this feel, etc. and then again
Speaker:Trist: the way that it builds adding the children's choir.
Speaker:Trist: To me, the children's choir is a key.
Speaker:Trist: Like if you believe in me, I'll believe.
Speaker:Trist: whatever the different lines are.
Speaker:Trist: So that's the crux of it.
Speaker:Trist: Even though there's lots of different lines that probably
Speaker:Trist: mean a lot, you can't get past that about that, like how
Speaker:Trist: important someone's support is.
Speaker:Trist: So if you believe in me, then I can believe like how important
Speaker:Trist: mentorship is, etc.. So you believe in me.
Speaker:Trist: I can believe in these things.
Speaker:Trist: So I just I love the kids choir in there at the at the end.
Speaker:Elaine: That is really interesting because, you know, as many
Speaker:Elaine: people know here probably by now, I don't hear words very
Speaker:Elaine: well after very like I have to be concentrating really, really
Speaker:Elaine: hard to understand the words on a first listen.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I went and I, chased down the lyrics and, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: staring at the lyrics because I used to teach English as well.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was like, okay, okay, what is this song actually mean?
Speaker:Elaine: And the question that I wrote
Speaker:Elaine: down as I was listening to this
Speaker:Elaine: was, who is the audience of the
Speaker:Elaine: song?
Speaker:Elaine: And I was reading through it.
Speaker:Elaine: And, you know, the longer I read
Speaker:Elaine: through it, the more I was
Speaker:Elaine: wondering, is this a protest
Speaker:Elaine: song?
Speaker:Elaine: Is this a question about, the future of the world?
Speaker:Elaine: And like, who owns the future of the world?
Speaker:Elaine: And that got me to I mean it, I was down in a rabbit hole and
Speaker:Elaine: trying to think about like, what is the context of the song?
Speaker:Elaine: Because, you know, a song is not released in a vacuum, right?
Speaker:Elaine: It's released in a cultural context.
Speaker:Elaine: And so as we're talking about 1991 and, you know, thinking
Speaker:Elaine: about if it's released in '91, probably like recorded in 1990
Speaker:Elaine: and probably written sometime before then, what was happening
Speaker:Elaine: in the late '80s, early 90s?
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm like, oh my goodness.
Speaker:Elaine: So much was happening on a In a geopolitical, fashion at that
Speaker:Elaine: point in time.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, we're talking about the Iran-Iraq war.
Speaker:Elaine: We're talking about the end of the Cold War.
Speaker:Elaine: We're talking about all sorts of
Speaker:Elaine: tensions that are happening
Speaker:Elaine: worldwide.
Speaker:Elaine: And in the middle of this, there are songs about, doves.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, you know, rising and then
Speaker:Elaine: love, like it's calling out to
Speaker:Elaine: me and, and there's a lot about
Speaker:Elaine: future.
Speaker:Elaine: There's a lot about past.
Speaker:Elaine: There's a lot about hopes and dreams.
Speaker:Elaine: In the middle of this comes like the kids choir, which is like,
Speaker:Elaine: you know, we're talking now and I feel like I'm trying to
Speaker:Elaine: connect all of these very discrete pieces together.
Speaker:Elaine: But I think if I look at these lyrics, at least through the
Speaker:Elaine: lens of war and peace and looking at the lens of, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, the future of our world and the current people who run
Speaker:Elaine: it, it really begins to say, oh, is this actually a protest song
Speaker:Elaine: or is it about mentorship or is it about some of these things?
Speaker:Elaine: And I personally find myself having to stare at these, at
Speaker:Elaine: these lyrics a lot more and think about at the very
Speaker:Elaine: beginning, you know, you were talking about the pseudo
Speaker:Elaine: religious or the semi-religious overtones of some of these
Speaker:Elaine: things and the concept of doves and love and, peace and love
Speaker:Elaine: and, all of this imagery that's happening in the song.
Speaker:Elaine: So I don't know if I'm right or
Speaker:Elaine: not, I don't know if the
Speaker:Elaine: songwriter is going to come back
Speaker:Elaine: to me and say, oh, you got it
Speaker:Elaine: totally wrong.
Speaker:Elaine: But I think that there is
Speaker:Elaine: something about looking at the
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics together and thinking
Speaker:Elaine: about, okay, what does a bridge
Speaker:Elaine: mean?
Speaker:Elaine: What is a bridge saying?
Speaker:Elaine: And even that got me super
Speaker:Elaine: confused because there are
Speaker:Elaine: double entendres.
Speaker:Elaine: There are different ways of interpreting things.
Speaker:Elaine: Is someone out of their mind because they're like crazy.
Speaker:Elaine: Or are they out of their mind
Speaker:Elaine: because they're not overthinking
Speaker:Elaine: things now?
Speaker:Elaine: And so therefore, you know, or
Speaker:Elaine: they're out of their mind,
Speaker:Elaine: meaning that, you know, they've
Speaker:Elaine: disengaged and now they're
Speaker:Elaine: they're thinking about
Speaker:Elaine: something.
Speaker:Elaine: So there's there's a whole bunch
Speaker:Elaine: of different ways that each one
Speaker:Elaine: of these phrases could be
Speaker:Elaine: interpreted.
Speaker:Elaine: And each one, I think, cascades
Speaker:Elaine: down in the way that you think
Speaker:Elaine: about lyrics.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that's also part of
Speaker:Elaine: the beauty of the songwriting
Speaker:Elaine: art form.
Speaker:Elaine: Right, is that there are so many different ways to positively and
Speaker:Elaine: properly interpret, like what someone is going to say, um,
Speaker:Elaine: unless you are like me and like inserting not the right words in
Speaker:Elaine: lots of different places, I'm like, no, no, no, that's not
Speaker:Elaine: what it actually says.
Speaker:Elaine: But um, but yeah, I just kind of curious about if that changes
Speaker:Elaine: your mind about this at all.
Speaker:Trist: Uh, no. I like deeper songs like that, where you can take the
Speaker:Trist: surface lyrics and take them for face value, or read into them
Speaker:Trist: many different layers, you know?
Speaker:Trist: Again, I'm seeing a lot of
Speaker:Trist: things get kind of or what I was
Speaker:Trist: talking about.
Speaker:Trist: If you believe in me, I'll
Speaker:Trist: believe in what will be, you
Speaker:Trist: know, because we want the same
Speaker:Trist: things.
Speaker:Trist: The world we only dreamed of, right.
Speaker:Trist: I think I think a lot of that in
Speaker:Trist: your context of, um, right at
Speaker:Trist: the end of the Cold War, that
Speaker:Trist: kind of thing, like, oh, these
Speaker:Trist: new possibilities are opening
Speaker:Trist: up.
Speaker:Trist: yeah, give us the future.
Speaker:Trist: That's all we need of you.
Speaker:Trist: Like, give us the space to do the things we want to do, etc.
Speaker:Trist: So yeah, I see where I see where that kind of comes into play.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, let us know what you think by sending us an email at
Speaker:Elaine: themusiciansloupe, that is l-o-u-p-e at gmail.com, or
Speaker:Elaine: reaching out to us on Instagram or on Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: We would love to hear from you.
Speaker:Trist: And you can include information about, if you like the out
Speaker:Trist: chorus to that as much as I do.
Speaker:Trist: Man those chords, that last ending gets me every time.
Speaker:Trist: I'm a sucker for those big flat six.
Speaker:Trist: Flat seven.
Speaker:Trist: One uplifting chords.
Speaker:Trist: So let me know if you're a sucker for those just the way
Speaker:Trist: that I am.
Speaker:Elaine: I am.
Speaker:Elaine: So feel free to reach out to us
Speaker:Elaine: either via email, which we just
Speaker:Elaine: gave to you, or on Instagram or
Speaker:Elaine: threads.
Speaker:Elaine: We would love to hear from you.
Speaker:Elaine: Instagram.
Speaker:Elaine: It's @themusiciansloupe, same thing on Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we go, we have one more segment.
Speaker:Elaine: It is called.
Speaker:Trist: Mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: The mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: Today's mailbag is actually not from Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, and it is not an email.
Speaker:Elaine: It's actually my question.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, no.
Speaker:Elaine: We're in trouble.
Speaker:Elaine: So it's my personal question for you, Trist.
Speaker:Elaine: Although I do have thoughts about this.
Speaker:Elaine: So here's the question.
Speaker:Elaine: How do you think about lessons or group coaching?
Speaker:Elaine: And so when I say how what I'm
Speaker:Elaine: really saying is what
Speaker:Elaine: differences are there between
Speaker:Elaine: the benefits of either
Speaker:Elaine: individual coaching or team
Speaker:Elaine: coaching.
Speaker:Elaine: And how have the two impacted your musical career?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, goodness.
Speaker:Trist: Uh, I think both have been super important, I think.
Speaker:Trist: Obviously, individual lessons with someone, uh, whether I'm
Speaker:Trist: taking them or giving them can be very specific to, like a
Speaker:Trist: technique, an attitude, sometimes a physical
Speaker:Trist: manifestation, like, oh, every time you sing this kind of
Speaker:Trist: music, etc., you do this thing.
Speaker:Trist: So someone just identifying the issues that you might have or
Speaker:Trist: your strengths, etc.. So I think that's super important and that
Speaker:Trist: differs from group because you're talking about the way
Speaker:Trist: that people sing together and what those tendencies are.
Speaker:Trist: and I shape your musicality as well.
Speaker:Trist: So I don't know, I think they're both important.
Speaker:Trist: I think there can be some
Speaker:Trist: similarities, but I think
Speaker:Trist: they're pretty different,
Speaker:Trist: because there's just different
Speaker:Trist: focuses.
Speaker:Trist: There's different focus on your individual habits or variety or
Speaker:Trist: your instrument, etc., strengthening different parts of
Speaker:Trist: what you do.
Speaker:Trist: Whereas, working with an entire group, you're working with, how
Speaker:Trist: they work together, you might address individual issues, etc.,
Speaker:Trist: but you're you're mostly talking about how how people work
Speaker:Trist: together to make the music.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. I mean, I think that there
Speaker:Elaine: is something in there about
Speaker:Elaine: that.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm really curious about how you approach both your individual
Speaker:Elaine: lessons with students, or how you approach adjudicating or
Speaker:Elaine: like discussing things or even going into a classroom as an
Speaker:Elaine: invited instructor or someone who comes in and coaches choirs,
Speaker:Elaine: like, can you talk a little bit about how your approach differs
Speaker:Elaine: between the two?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, right.
Speaker:Trist: Well, similarly, like I just said, so an individual student
Speaker:Trist: like, What are their goals?
Speaker:Trist: What am I going to help them do individually?
Speaker:Trist: and what can I sense in their tone production in their just in
Speaker:Trist: the way that their mechanism is working, how they're breathing,
Speaker:Trist: etc.. sometimes that technical or sometimes if they're a little
Speaker:Trist: more advanced, how they're phrasing or how they're
Speaker:Trist: approaching a particular kind of style of music that they're
Speaker:Trist: doing and helping them find, um, listening actually quite often
Speaker:Trist: to examples of, of things that are more in a style and things
Speaker:Trist: to copy or singers to follow.
Speaker:Trist: Whereas when I go in individually as a group,
Speaker:Trist: generally I have a smaller amount of time.
Speaker:Trist: So generally it's okay from these two or three listens, in
Speaker:Trist: this group of people that I've never heard before, what one or
Speaker:Trist: two things can I say that'll make their performance together
Speaker:Trist: better as quickly as possible?
Speaker:Trist: Whereas with the individual
Speaker:Trist: student, sure, I want some
Speaker:Trist: instant quick fixes like, oh,
Speaker:Trist: you keep you keep tensing up
Speaker:Trist: your jaw.
Speaker:Trist: Let's get that loosened.
Speaker:Trist: I can address that right away,
Speaker:Trist: but I might have a four or five
Speaker:Trist: lesson arc of something that I'm
Speaker:Trist: trying to address in an
Speaker:Trist: individual.
Speaker:Elaine: You generally have more time with an individual.
Speaker:Trist: Right. So unless I know I'm unless I know I'm going to be
Speaker:Trist: hired to go into a classroom, you know, once a week for a
Speaker:Trist: month, I don't have that.
Speaker:Trist: It's like, hey, come and listen to our group.
Speaker:Trist: And here's some music we prepared.
Speaker:Trist: And, you know, our show is next week.
Speaker:Trist: what can we do in that one week
Speaker:Trist: that'll make that performance
Speaker:Trist: better?
Speaker:Trist: And at that point, I might
Speaker:Trist: address with the director
Speaker:Trist: something that I think they need
Speaker:Trist: to work.
Speaker:Trist: So their show on the next
Speaker:Trist: semester is good because it's a
Speaker:Trist: bigger issue.
Speaker:Trist: Um, but right then, I'm just listening for.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, what quick, easy things can
Speaker:Trist: fix this and kind of polish this
Speaker:Trist: up.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. I'm kind of curious also about the concept of clinics.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I'm thinking about, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, you have a sample group
Speaker:Elaine: like a small ensemble, and then
Speaker:Elaine: you have a whole lot of people
Speaker:Elaine: in the audience who are
Speaker:Elaine: listening to you as you're
Speaker:Elaine: giving feedback.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: How do you approach that?
Speaker:Trist: That's interesting because
Speaker:Trist: sometimes, yeah, you switch your
Speaker:Trist: goal, sometimes you're quote
Speaker:Trist: unquote teaching the singers in
Speaker:Trist: front of you, and that's how it
Speaker:Trist: appears.
Speaker:Trist: But you might well know that the
Speaker:Trist: singers in front of, you know,
Speaker:Trist: the information that you're
Speaker:Trist: telling them already, and you're
Speaker:Trist: really using that as a vehicle
Speaker:Trist: to teach a whole audience of
Speaker:Trist: people something.
Speaker:Trist: So without just turning around and talking to the audience,
Speaker:Trist: hey, this is what you should do is you kind of vacillate between
Speaker:Trist: truly working with the group and sometimes you kind of tailor
Speaker:Trist: make it to, okay, I'm really teaching the group something.
Speaker:Trist: And if out there you happen to
Speaker:Trist: be paying attention, this is
Speaker:Trist: something you should do with
Speaker:Trist: your groups.
Speaker:Trist: That's where that's kind of fun and interesting.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes I break that wall and just tell them directly, these
Speaker:Trist: guys know this, but I'm going to show you this.
Speaker:Trist: And sometimes you're a little more sly about it, and it's as
Speaker:Trist: if you're only teaching the students and on stage they're
Speaker:Trist: giving you that, like, smile, like, oh, I see, We're already
Speaker:Trist: good at this, but you're just pointing it out so the audience
Speaker:Trist: can pick up on it.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm actually kind of curious from a consumer's perspective.
Speaker:Elaine: Like, you have not only done
Speaker:Elaine: this as an instructor, but
Speaker:Elaine: you've also attended a whole lot
Speaker:Elaine: of clinics.
Speaker:Elaine: You've been, as a student, like as an individual student, etc..
Speaker:Elaine: What parts of your musicality or your skills has improved in each
Speaker:Elaine: one of these contexts?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, man.
Speaker:Trist: Well, the ability to do it
Speaker:Trist: myself is exclusively from
Speaker:Trist: watching that.
Speaker:Trist: So in high school and college, going to those kinds of
Speaker:Trist: festivals, um, where there are vocal groups and there are,
Speaker:Trist: clinicians, adjudicators that come up and work with the
Speaker:Trist: students, seeing amazing educators through my life, do
Speaker:Trist: that very thing is absolutely the reason I have any ability to
Speaker:Trist: do it myself.
Speaker:Trist: So seeing how they approach it
Speaker:Trist: and how they get right to the
Speaker:Trist: point, I learned that, kind of
Speaker:Trist: early on, like, oh, I heard like
Speaker:Trist: a hundred things I would fix
Speaker:Trist: about the way that that group
Speaker:Trist: sings.
Speaker:Trist: But wow, that person picked out
Speaker:Trist: the two things that gave them
Speaker:Trist: the most improvement, the
Speaker:Trist: fastest.
Speaker:Trist: Uh etc. So, man, super important.
Speaker:Trist: Um, and just hearing different
Speaker:Trist: perspectives, is really
Speaker:Trist: valuable.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. I think it's really interesting because, like, my
Speaker:Elaine: musical background, I started out in individual instruction as
Speaker:Elaine: a piano student.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: So it was just me and the piano
Speaker:Elaine: teacher week after week after
Speaker:Elaine: week.
Speaker:Elaine: Maybe I saw someone if I were taking some kind of national
Speaker:Elaine: exam, but that's about it.
Speaker:Elaine: Maybe we would have the occasional performance with
Speaker:Elaine: other students of this teacher.
Speaker:Elaine: But I didn't really experience these group experiences and
Speaker:Elaine: these group instruction until I started singing in college.
Speaker:Elaine: And so in college, I was learning all of these things
Speaker:Elaine: about vocal production, about breathwork, and about, posture,
Speaker:Elaine: diaphragm engagement, etc. in these group settings.
Speaker:Elaine: Because I didn't have individual.
Speaker:Elaine: I couldn't afford individual
Speaker:Elaine: instruction at that point in
Speaker:Elaine: time.
Speaker:Elaine: And it wasn't until I moved into a cappella that I began to learn
Speaker:Elaine: more about hearing other people get feedback, right.
Speaker:Elaine: And so these types of critiques that came to other groups and I
Speaker:Elaine: began to recognize and realize, like how these patterns
Speaker:Elaine: manifested itself in my group.
Speaker:Elaine: So it was really interesting for me to have these different
Speaker:Elaine: experiences at different parts of my life and just reflect on
Speaker:Elaine: the different types of learning that I had.
Speaker:Elaine: And then also connect it to how I teach martial arts right now
Speaker:Elaine: and how it's very different.
Speaker:Elaine: Mostly because you don't have that ensemble experience, right?
Speaker:Elaine: You're not at that point where you are.
Speaker:Elaine: Anyone is working together
Speaker:Elaine: unless we're doing a skit of
Speaker:Elaine: some kind.
Speaker:Elaine: But really, my job as an
Speaker:Elaine: instructor is very similar to my
Speaker:Elaine: job as a high school teacher
Speaker:Elaine: when when I was teaching high
Speaker:Elaine: school, which is very much all
Speaker:Elaine: right.
Speaker:Elaine: How do I get each student leveling up at all times?
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: How do I differentiate experience or differentiate
Speaker:Elaine: instruction so that each one of them will get a little bit of
Speaker:Elaine: something every single class?
Speaker:Elaine: How can I make sure that
Speaker:Elaine: everyone gets that
Speaker:Elaine: individualized attention, which
Speaker:Elaine: I think is very different in
Speaker:Elaine: ensemble, right, where we're
Speaker:Elaine: trying to create a specific
Speaker:Elaine: sound.
Speaker:Elaine: As people are blending together, you can begin to think about how
Speaker:Elaine: do we create this thing together and how do we coach each group
Speaker:Elaine: to be better and give other people a visibility into how
Speaker:Elaine: each group is getting better for their own improvement?
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: How would you say that applies
Speaker:Trist: to, you in your, day job
Speaker:Trist: workspace.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, in my day job workspace.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, we are constantly trying to improve.
Speaker:Elaine: And one of the things that we do is both self reflection as well
Speaker:Elaine: as external input.
Speaker:Elaine: And so if I think about.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah so so when I say external
Speaker:Elaine: input, if I think about
Speaker:Elaine: something like, coaching, like
Speaker:Elaine: career coaching, I am currently
Speaker:Elaine: in a season where I've paid for
Speaker:Elaine: someone outside of the company
Speaker:Elaine: to come and speak truth into my
Speaker:Elaine: life and ask me the right
Speaker:Elaine: questions so that I know how to
Speaker:Elaine: grow.
Speaker:Elaine: And this is something that I don't do very often.
Speaker:Elaine: It is something that is certainly a privilege to be able
Speaker:Elaine: to, pay for and have my company pay for this.
Speaker:Elaine: We also have external consultants that will come in
Speaker:Elaine: and give us advice.
Speaker:Elaine: Sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker:Elaine: Sometimes we have people from outside of our group and I'm
Speaker:Elaine: constantly soliciting feedback from outside of our group.
Speaker:Elaine: So I have mentors inside of the company, but outside of my group
Speaker:Elaine: who will give us feedback on will give me feedback on, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, what I might want to consider or approach or change
Speaker:Elaine: as I enter into this next season or as we're, undergoing some
Speaker:Elaine: kind of a challenge.
Speaker:Elaine: So that external feedback, I think is really important.
Speaker:Elaine: and at the same time, our team
Speaker:Elaine: has a regular pattern, um, a
Speaker:Elaine: regular practice.
Speaker:Elaine: And this is, I think, across the
Speaker:Elaine: industry, across the software
Speaker:Elaine: industry, especially as they're
Speaker:Elaine: looking at something called
Speaker:Elaine: Agile to constantly reevaluate
Speaker:Elaine: and think, is there anything we
Speaker:Elaine: could do better from a process
Speaker:Elaine: perspective?
Speaker:Elaine: Is there anything we could do
Speaker:Elaine: better now to make sure that our
Speaker:Elaine: future lives are going to be
Speaker:Elaine: easier?
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that is something that is incredibly healthy and
Speaker:Elaine: something that we should continue to do in, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: growth ful ways.
Speaker:Elaine: But yeah, that external feedback
Speaker:Elaine: aspect of it, I think is really
Speaker:Elaine: important.
Speaker:Elaine: It may be a little underutilized.
Speaker:Trist: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. We would love to hear from
Speaker:Elaine: you either on Instagram or
Speaker:Elaine: Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: We have been posting a whole lot of things for you to respond to.
Speaker:Elaine: Hopefully something just kind of like tickles your fancy, or is
Speaker:Elaine: something that you might be interested in discussing a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit further.
Speaker:Elaine: We'd love to hear from you!
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, let us know what you think.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: So that is it for this week.
Speaker:Elaine: We will see you next week on The Musician's Loupe.
Speaker:Trist: See you soon.
Speaker:Elaine: I'll probably cut out that bye.
Speaker:Elaine: Thank God for editing.
Speaker:Trist: Exactly.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, you haven't told me what song it is yet.
Speaker:Trist: Can you hear me still?
Speaker:Elaine: Yep.
Speaker:Trist: Do you hear me now?
Speaker:Elaine: Yep.
